I Left My Job and 99% of My Network Ghosted Me | AA273

all work relationships are fake. that's probably what you've heard from the most cynical voices. And it's very close to what [UH] I want believe because every time that I left a corporate job, probably 99 percent of the people that said any time give me call. after don't work there more ghosts. Yeah, complete ghost give example of this. a coach I work with for years a boss is supposed to help my development by figuring out where best apply my strengths and opening doors and figuring Both people after I stop working there, know, would tag them social media. reach out with texts, stuff like that. Nothing. was everyone just faking relationship the whole time? that's question. think you're 99 percent from my perspective might be tad but I think depends on how you're invested know, in your own career and your own relationships. So, in in prepping for this podcast, had this word kept coming up. was this phrase kept coming up, which was role dependent care. relationship is like liquid. It's shaped like this container. But once container dissolves, there is nothing to hold relationship anymore. Which which I say is like bleaker than if you were just cynical I like, well, they're just faking it because they're work and got to do that. It sadly is bleaker. Now you think about somebody who's been the employment workforce for while. If you're do this, typically people do move, know, they change jobs, cetera. So we're this time time again. kind leaves you with this sour taste in your mouth. Do I have anybody that can reach out to? Everybody said that they're good for me, but they're not there when need them. That's right. That's right. All right. Yeah. Well, deep dive today on that one. That's today. So welcome back Arguing Agile. if this your first time, welcome. I'm your host product manager Brian Orlando. And this my co -host enterprise business Agility Leader and the Pharaoh Feelings, Mr. Om Patel feeling instant promotion. It claim that just made stopping just short of saying that all work relationships are fake. Like obviously Om doesn't buy don't really buy either. It's it's one those. He got you. Thanks for clicking like subscribe. But we might talk about, know, back forth why, why, why that's not really great advice is it's all fake. Just keep guard up. Yeah, good one. Stay with us. And as usual, we're leave you with some actual actionable takeaways the end with one sticky that can put on side of your monitor can actually put some these things into into practice and hopefully they'll be good for you. So we're going talk through how my coach vanished once money dried up because that real thing. We're talk about that. We're talk about social posting thread counting test that run today find out who's got your back and [UH] who[UH] I don't know doesn't And then we'll examine how scammers sell that loneliness right back to us because absolutely because know that's my favorite thing to talk about. So let's let's let's go. Yeah, let's dove into it. let's go right into case that started this whole podcast for me. So a coach. I'm glad you're here I'm glad you showed up today for this podcast because you may may may not able to talk about a coach gets paid by the hour you know, to work through your weaknesses, to help you, to help you do stuff that the boy it's lot like offloading what boss should be doing isn't Anyway, to a coach gets paid by the hour to know your weaknesses and to work with you on them. That coach says [UH] pick any time have any issues, know, look me up you're ever in, know, my city or whatever. And then, and then the engagement ends. And then that coach never, never answers another message from you ever again. No, no messages, no email, no texts, no social tags, no, no Christmas cards, you know no Easter Sundays. know what, whatever, whatever floats boat. Here's feeling that leaves me with. And it's not did they secretly dislike me just case wondering that it's was that person ever actually committed to me and my outcomes or were they just there for the financial engagement? Boy, wow this is really strong start because think in most cases, if you have coaches, you've really question why. Why do they coach you again, we're going go through that like this. It's got really short by way. Short discussion of that distinction between coach and mentor. Mentors tend be with you for little longer than just the duration of your engagement or gig[UH] coaches be more about you know what can I to help you because know I'm the coach. Right. And then to your point when engagement ends they're gone. But during that time when the engagement is still active have you really fostered those personal relationships with them [UH] I'm turning tables little bit to you as individual rather than the coach. But the same time, I'm not absolving coach of their obligations. Right? OK, so during time when you actually have interactions, try and build that relationship [UH] meet them for coffee sometime. Even if it's virtual, that's OK. And sometimes it doesn't even have be about your need. It can just be, let me tell you what I've tried that worked didn't work. And that's it. Right So mentors typically fall into that category. But coaches what they saw will actually encourage that. Most coaches who are there, like you said, paid by the hour. They don't do that. They're just like, what problem have today? What you know? have nothing else, we can just close this call[UH] This, I mean, you're, you're, you're racing down right track. but grab the wheel and just like send us off road, maybe careening, maybe flipping. know because when I, when thought about this, the first thing came mind was like is very personal like podcast that I've cooked up here because what came mind first was like was this person acting whole time? And number one, number one was that were acting whole time? And then number two, is there anything can look out for to help me know they were acting the whole time? Because future, if I'm ever a product management like executive or director whatever, and I'm in position where can bring coach to help my juniors I'm overloaded whatever. Like many directors and stuff are How do know that I'm not getting somebody who's just phone and then taking my money and then isn't really dedicated because because I'll get rid them like right away and I'll get somebody who really cares, who really is on board to help my people get ahead to really help them. You know like some relationships, I get They're transactional. you, you, you fork over your money. You get some coaching advice and then that's it. And then other ones like lifelong. know, people keep looking back you over the course of your career. matter. It doesn't really matter where job is, where you are on job it matters that you are successful and they're going to help you. Yeah, Yeah, think you're talking about two different things here. I am. I am. But I wanted bring now because I feel that the cynic will say in response to my well, I had coach and this is the thing ended. was like gone didn't didn't respond my social media posts even when I tagged them and didn't respond my texts or know oh you know happy birthday whatever anything like that. Nothing. Yeah. And I'm like well what heck was this relationship always one sided. was just like naive. that what's going on? And the cynic here is perfect because the cynic says all that we're like networking, meaning like professional networking at work. It's all transactional. Just grow up. Yeah, I know the face it, it's sort like feels that way if you're in that situation that just described, right? People just go to, know, hear back and you're kind disappointed saying I thought they had back. But again this is just me being hopeful. It's not all networking is transactional again, this, this falls back to you, right? Have you fostered those personal relationships? So how you know, how you know when you're actually working with coach they're going be there for you when you read them in the future? Whether it's the same job, another job never later whatever. I think there are some signs can look for. First is look for the coach to give you directional insight into what you can be doing but give you also actionable steps that you are accountable for and then come back at some point to measure against that this to tell you something and cast pearls of wisdom and then disappear. Yeah, they're not really your coach. Right? They're simply there for that transactional piece that mentioned. But if they follow up and say, last time we met, you said do all this. How did that go? Yeah. Right. And then listen to you and actually empathize with you. That's showing me commitment on their part. If you're getting to that point, you're really close to working where you actually get that personal relationship where they will respond and they will return your calls or things whatever. there's two things though that I'm going throw here for what I think heard. I'm to throw two things for what exists because lot of content the two things. Number one there's like a I didn't really go into this this podcast because I've been consultant. So I know that like a lot coaches are just consultants show because they're much more senior people. if I, the employee am asking for something like with the text whatever and it's quick like five minutes respond whatever. I'm not looking like a, know, oh, I'm bill you for exactly this many So like I'm not asking for you to work outside billable hours. You know, mean, because see it being perceived that way Brian wants me to, know, do whatever. I'm out hours. So whatever. Like that's not what I'm saying. Like understand boundaries but I think deep relationship if you're actually committed my success and there's a deep relationship. I think that that commitment to outcomes leaves some sort of outline. And that outline can't be like completely shoved inside the billable hours like that. know, mean, if the person shape and the shadow can't go together and be completely even. Yeah, I think there's something else there. But it's not a taking advantage sort relationship kind thing. It's hard explain. No, I get it It's not in the SOW. inexplicit term. So they're perfectly well within their legal rights. guess to say I'm staying quiet because I got other things to do that I can bill for. Right But end day, it's one those moral obligations as a coach that you have that says here's a young person that's young in the experience sense that's willing grow. And I should be helping them because at one point my career, people help me. So just bring forward. If you're not doing that, you're really not a coach my view, at least from other point view, the coach's point view. If you're not seeing that reciprocated get another coach. that's the academic here is that professional boundaries protect both parties. So you want to have your coach say, oh, you call on me, I got send you the invoice that hour whatever. Like it's like five. But your point, it's five minutes I know that's what you're into the hour that you're not actually working for full hour. That's why I'm looking what mean. That's why I'm looking the academics like response here. I'm like, well, that's worthless like that. Totally, worthless. And then, know, the practitioner here says consultants can't befriend every single client. Like you're not going golf with every single client. And I get that. but, with the description that started the podcast on of, know, this guy was, know, he was Johnny on spot all time for couple years. you know, was working product manager. And and when the when the invoices stopped coming, he stopped responding everything. know, no text, calls, no emails, not you know, not even tagging social media, not even responding. You know so like what that? You're too busy for like see posting. I know you're on there. You know I ring your doorbell when I come by house. I know you're there because see coming going. mean like what's going on dude. The whole time he was engaged on your project, kept saying you can ring my. No, no, no. It's but when you do is not there[UH] See, that's That's where my mind goes when when was planning this podcast. that's that's I went to the darkest places when I'm saying I climbed Steps of Mount Doom and threw the ring in and I'm like, the heck, where I going to the asymmetry of he knew boundaries like he a professional like more experienced professional than I knew the boundaries. He just let me believe whatever want believe. You know, mean like there's real cynical take here. There's real dark take here. Yes. That know is not like obviously that's not going on. But anybody being ghosted, you don't know what's go on through head because they're being ghosted. million things go through their head. So you got to think are they faking that warmth or is it real or is it just like I can be warm and have relationship you while this container here. And container goes away then like you're gone. Yeah, yeah, yeah. It can be very hard if you're just entering field kind of position yourself that context. But I would lean back to this idea of while they are on your engagement as coach by all means engage with them for the professional needs but also try and foster that kind of personal angle with them. Right once while talk about stuff that's not work related because you'll figure out what resonates between the two you. And those are, I know sounds fickle, but those are the sorts of things that really help you maintain those longer term things. don't think sounds fickle all. would say like if there's people like if there's engineers or know, developers or folks listen to this or product folks like listen podcast that have never thought about this, opening meeting talk about him. That's not like that's not really an American thing of like opening meeting talking about like non business stuff for the first like 10 minutes. Yeah. You know, mean like took just warm up the people and then you jump into business like the typical American business. want to call and get right into it. So busy, you know, wasting time. Five minutes over on this meeting and then five minutes late next one. got get right it like that. know, that's, that's culture which is not necessarily best. But for anyone saying how would I even try implement that? you have like a, you have like a rule thumb of, when you're talking to coaches like this, like is there like a 90 10? You know, like five, percent. Like what will your like rule thumb to say like try to know them as people. And then also, for what they're paid for, you know, use them that. So you're like if coach is like 10 hours per week or something that usually 10 hours there were but but try to like have one for like 30 minutes and don't talk about work. good know them. Yeah, mean coaches again, real coaches will have a informal but hopefully formal coaching contact with you. was say, was say, I realize that you're about tell me real coaches are going do that in the other direction and you're not even know. Exactly. Yeah. So the informal piece that talked about is that coaching contract where they are vested in you and they'll get to learn all about you. Right? As much they can. The coaching contract isn't just OK. I'm only billable this much. So that's all I'm going lend this person. mean that's contractual thing. They're not coach that point. They're just, know, adviser. Right? And yes, do not expect them to return your calls afterwards or things whatever. consultant at that point. Exactly. Yeah. Yeah. They're building by clock. OK. So you might have that but can turn those situations. Right. It's like those not those not lost leaders. You can turn those situations by initiating those personal touches yourself. So when you're getting into those calls with them and they start with business related work, just you know, hold them back little bit. And you say, what's keeping you busy these days, coach? Yeah, [UH] seriously, like that, know, and initially it might feel little bit weird, but you're actually fostering that those relationships on a personal level that might actually pay off the long run. don't expect them to. That's the other thing, right? Don't don't be one those people says I did my part and why aren't doing their part? Because you're just being just as contractual they were. Yeah. All right. have takeaway here. It's clunkily worded. So me explain what says because you're not like say stop reading paid warmth friendship and start looking for effort that you that you didn't bill for that didn't get billed for. Now don't really mean that you didn't get billed for what mean is effort like an unbillable effort. Yeah. Meaning actual human connection is what really mean is just talked about. So did they ever initiate contact unprompted, which we're into later. dig into that one now. Sure. Do they remember details across sessions? And I also say that non work related details across sections. And then do they ever spend their credibility for you? Meaning temporarily act as sponsor to cut across the organization or cut across your problems. So those are those are three questions. They are great takeaways, I think. Yeah. Yeah. so here's what want know from you. Have you ever tested a paid relationship after the money stopped? Coach, consultant, an agency. And then tell me comments because genuinely want know that if my case is rule or exception. this is only one case. And as and as I understand one case, you know, it's just an anecdote. just anecdotal. One case. So next, let's, let's army with real tools to help you understand how to judge these professional relationships. That was, that was sassy airquotes, professional relationships. OK. go ahead. Open up phone. Scroll back through the texts or posts of any work contact and sort through every exchange and sort them into three buckets. All right. I'm not going to give you a 20 minute diatribe. I'm to tell you buckets right now. So Number one, they initiated. Number two, they responded to you or they never responded at all. And that's it. Three buckets those three buckets are line up pear shaped probably those people. All right. So that's whole test. So OK, here's part that stings. A relationship that 100 percent is bucket number two[UH] it will look completely healthy if you're not like if you're not doing what we just told you. You're not paying attention and shuffling things different folders and put them in your filing cabinet or whatever. Rainy day right up to the point where you stop being the person that initiates. Yeah. And Since you're not willing to just stop altogether just to do test, you're never finding this out hard way until don't work there anymore. That's what would say. Yeah, yeah. So count your threads. That's not we're not talking about clothes. Oh steel man right. That's right. That's right. That's right So the three bucket initiation audit and listen, it's runnable while you're still employed. It's just, you know, don't break that tool out unless you're willing to look at what results are to I'll like, yeah, I work lot people and especially for your boss who you might find out is like they got time for you also your boss is special category because the whole they initiate the contact thing. I had boss one time that he only ever initiated contact when something was absolutely on fire or he wanted yell at me. And I'm like, well, don't count those. Right? I don't count those, know But yeah, the the cynic here is good one. And the cynic says, so what we're now now we're now we're keeping score on everyone work with. That's we're doing for everyone our life because this could spill over once start looking it in terms your coworkers and your relationships, that to be honest, spend the most time on because you probably spend more time with your coworkers than you do your family. Once start looking this way, it's like it's hard to unsee. Yeah, the cynic is solid I just think know, you got to realize not everyone you work with, should keeping a score. Only people that matter and only you figure out who they are, right [UH] you know they are. Write them down sticky note. And if it's beyond sticky note, get smaller sticky because just kind of, you know, just being broad at that point. There's only probably be handful of people maybe with fingers to spare that you can count. And those the people that should be your focal point. Yeah, the, the old practitioner here is my favorite. My favorite is always usually is always a practitioner says listen some, some there's some people just like they're just bad textures. They're bad replying. Even even they could be family. They're just like they're bad using Internet or bad using their phone whatever. Right And this true, right? This is not everyone but some. So this is true, guess what? You had that duration of time where were actually interacting with them in a professional capacity. Right. Before kind of either you them parted ways, you can figure that out as behavioral trait. They always don't respond. But if you get them phone, right, then they are willing to give them, give you their time. If that's case, go with that. That's modus operandi. everyone's unique in how they, you know how they react back to a request. So be aware Yeah, mean like bad texter defense, like it, it fails with me when you scale it over time. not, not really scale When you aggregate it over time say, you know, a survey says that you know, I sent 300 texts to you and you sent zero me out of there. That shows that you don't really care about maintaining contact me. And you know, between this period when I said nothing, there was no message between us. Like that's, that's the other thing said that stuck me was like some people at your work. You're just not talk you. Right. Which is which is true. But I feel at that point where you say nothing them and they say nothing you I feel we're not talking about those people the podcast. Like So have takeaway here. It's a stop assuming that your relationship stop assuming that all your relationships are mutual and start gathering the evidence and which will say people might see that as I know, shady in some kind way. But I would say you're going do it for your work anyway. And fact, like some the coaching stuff, we went training one time where they, mean, they tell you well, build your like friend or foe map or a coach the organization because you know wants kind help you and who's like kind doesn't want things change is undermining you. not like you're not obviously you're not showing anyone but you want to work in contacts that are on the left side the friend side more than the contacts are on foe side. know, whatever, whatever. It kind helps you see things little more clearly. This is the same thing. Right? Yeah. So pick three just just as test. Pick three work relationships that you would call real. Scroll a year back, tally those three buckets that we talked about. One, they initiate. Two, they only respond. Three, there's no response. So you three buckets and then you flag any thread that is 100 percent you initiating. I would say, mean, or you take any thread where you like constantly your stuff has fallen off a cliff and then occasionally come back and initiate again and they respond. yeah. Don't be surprised find quite few in that last category there. Number three. Right. Don't despondent. Right. That's just it's a numbers game folks. Right. So don't don't look at that and say you know what me that nobody cares. No. Right. Just when start with one and you pick three. Yeah. And up with I initiated and they didn't respond. Find somebody else. Find one the three. Reach out to them they don't respond. Find three more, two more, one more. It doesn't matter. But don't let it get you down because people are people. People get busy Just double click a previous point where people are that category they don't respond. Actually had case where this guy's name was Mac. He won't mind because he's no longer alive. But the time he passed away and he didn't respond to any my things anywhere. And I'm thinking [UH] see ghosting me. Yeah. And turns out the poor guy made an untimely demise. OK, it is what is. Right? I can't influence that. as far excuses go, that's a very good one. Listen, I, I can't blame him exactly. And you know, if I did, would just scold me yeah, pretty sure had boss one time that would blame you. Like how dare you die without my permission. Yeah, right. Come back from the dead So this is test you can do today. In fact, right? you could try this out today. See which one of which your work friendships, actually survive the time when you leave and after. Right. Who's to be there for you? doesn't take long. Figure out. Look back a period time. We're suggesting year in your context. Been there 30 years. Go back three years. Yeah I like this this statement. If every exchange starts with you initiating the relationship has load rating of zero. You just haven't put any weight on So here's my challenge. Pick someone who you think really quote gets you at work and run the count that we talked about today. Right? Do it today and then listen. Let us know what find in the comments. No names, just the buckets. That's it. Yeah. And while you're there, like and subscribe. Oh, get that. Listen, you just happen be there anyway. So anyway I'll go first. That coach was zero. Easy But give me better comment pin other than zero. Like hopefully if everyone's zero, guess I'm pinning zero. But that's depressing once get number across several relationships like three, five, know, a few. Instead just one. That's when you can start asking real questions. Whatever that might be real as opposed fake questions. Brian, we doing whole time with our lives? So now we've we've generalized so far on the podcast. OK, we're not talking about one coach anymore. Now we're eyeing our whole professional network at this point. OK, so because 99 percent of your coworkers go silent after you leave the company. There are three possible explanations as see OK, there might be more, but these are the three that came up with at 1130 .m. when was prepping this podcast. OK, none them feel good. Just throw that out there. right. One[UH] they were faking whole time. All right. Sort revisiting our first category. Two they really do enjoy being around you or did enjoy being around you. They're just, they're just not willing to pay the price of maintaining the relationship. or three. And this is one that don't really hear lot people talking about because three nobody decided anything all. Like you just stopped appearing their day and The attention followed your absence just went away. So they priced absent. That's, that's the title this category. Fake priced absent. All right, let's get this. know it's tough one, huh? category was like the golden rule for me. I'm like oh shouldn't like treat people way that you want be treated? like know, we should be all cool and hold hands and sing songs and have coke or something. Hug polar bear. Whatever, the, know, whatever I was sold the 80s. remember what was I remember was golden rule. That's all remember from 80s. But the idea that like kindness builds like genesis this reputation. Not really following. Yeah, not today [UH] gold is very expensive. Not really. Yeah. Now I get that. All right. So let's get that. Really? These three[UH] explanations I mean, the first one is listen Brian, everyone's networking at work. Everyone's networking work. Like everyone's working angle. Nobody's real friend. You know, nobody grew up with you in school. There's another part of this podcast that we'll go into is like people have deeper relationships work. Like when you like dig in under under covers or under under table under and where we're going under things. you, when you dig into it, find out oh, they work together somewhere else or they're, know, somebody's married somebody or they knew somebody. They knew other from school like there's, there's some other place that relationship actually developed and it wasn't working together on development team or something like that. Like when you dig into, know why is this executive bringing people from all around, know, whatever, to, to work him. he has these deep relationships that are not from here working this workplace. Yeah, but you wouldn't know that from the outside. Right? And that's the cynic is well, everyone's working angle like everyone's of value because something that got from somewhere. And you just don't know enough about it. Yeah, think that last example is real in that, know, the executives typically when there's churn, they do bring in a group of people, their trusted posse. you like. have to say for being cynic here. Great point. Great point. There's lot more going on than you understand in the terms of professional relationships. Yeah. Yeah. So but I think this point actually underscores the importance of personal relationships Right. Just people used to people same school, for example. Right. Just nobody's remember were like not really in with that guy girl. Right? Yeah. So that personal relationship, whether be accidental or deliberately cultured it really does pay off the long run. So the day, you've got stop thinking about everybody's it for themselves. The cynic says and everyone's networking on angle. Right. And nobody's your friend [UM] want to go the other way on cynic and say so. Right. Just just try be friendly with people. Because you never know who you're meet. Right. Right. I share anecdote here in business school at my my worst subject was finance. Barely passed. But that I thought you were right. There was a looking for man in finance joke there. I was So that joke still valid few years after graduating from that, I happened be in in Latin America on business. In the hotel thunderstorm. I go up in the on the roof, the hotel there, pool all that. But there are canopy Thunderstorm couldn't out anyway. I see this guy practicing his karate moves and looked very familiar. He turns out to be the finance professor from high school It had probably been least six seven years by that stage since left. So didn't remember me. But I introduced myself. We talked. So my point is he didn't remember me. Right. And I did poorly in that subject. So he kept, you know, giving me more more things to do to bolster my, my capabilities. I didn't like, I didn't like him. But at end day, I kept reaching out when was B school saying what else do [UH] What else I do to better myself? And that he remembered. So he's know, working on? there any, know, do you work in finance? My finance is integral part of project management. Yeah. So all I'm trying say after all this is you never know. So just make sure you get the right side of people and maintain those relationships. But don't do it with an expectation return. Right? Because do that, then frankly you're faking it. And people will see that. know, mean like if there if I'm give ground on the arguing this one like ninety nine percent of relationships are fake even that gives ground that last one percent like OK well let's study that last one percent because there are people you work with and and what you know. There people like your finance professor. Right. You know, people like I talked about before have a pre work ties went to school with or were the jobs with them whatever or they live near you. And just because they live near you now you guys hanging out outside work whatever like even though one percent, it's compounding one percent because now it's everywhere. You've been in different places. it is real thing but it is real thing. But also, will tell you I've hired people like this before. I know you've ever met people like this workplace like there are just some people workplace that they just make friends and like they suddenly people are going out together and going out after work drinks whatever. like some people just that way. Yeah. they naturally attract other folks had, had a woman work me like this. She was like that. She's like she made friends with somebody else at work and like they're still friends. see him, know, hanging out time stuff like that. Like some people like that. They're in this one percent. It's just, yeah, it's just in their nature and their psyche. we talked about this on another podcast, people like they tend get from order lot quicker. Right? talked about that just because people like working with people So that's what boils down to the academic coined term an academic term by way propinquity propinquity. Yeah, propinquity. It's a propinquity drives bonds propinquity as far understand is nearness. Just people sitting the cubes to the left right you at work. Yeah. And distance dissolves them because yeah, mean this should been maybe could been proximity [UH] doesn't matter. Yes, yes, it does. Right. So you find that people that don't get on typically work necessarily suddenly one day they start to bond over small things. Maybe they find out that their kids going to the same school. Right. For example or they see each other church or whatever it might be. It only takes one of them to turn cold shoulder to that encounter you like. And it doesn't go anywhere. Yeah. But you know, if you're one those people, if you happen to see somebody at the supermarket line wherever you bump into someone, make the effort to go say hi. That's all have do. That's it. And then observe if they react. Great. If they don't, great[UH] you your part. That's like real life version of what what started talking about, like scrolling back your messages, like just over say hi. And if they want talk you, they're going talk you. if don't talk you, then you'll have said hi. Grab your, grab your olives and move on. Right? You know where you stand with that person at least. So next time you, maybe don't say hi but just wave. Yeah. Right. in that case, that would be a case of where said the context like container. If their relationship liquid and the context is container. Once the context goes away, like liquid just ls everywhere goes everywhere like that. That's exactly what I'm saying is that the, the work relationship was the concept container that was doing all that work. And once container goes away, nothing's holding relationship together. So like understand that I'm trying to. The next step was hard me to say out loud. understand that and then also like determine next step based on understanding that like you waved at them in supermarket. They waved at you and then like got their paper towels left like they don't really want to talk Like it's same if through your messages and you have an aha moment, like, oh, oh, I'm always pinging boss. And 50 percent time don't even respond. The other 50 percent time like they respond but like the conversation goes off rails start talking something else. And never really get what need. And then look through and you're like, know what? I never find instance where they're talking me. They're initiating the conversation where they're not saying like something on fire [UH] that's your answer. Right? And now [UM] but now have answer. What are going do with that answer? now driven into a driven to bad neighborhood home is what saying. And we don't be there. like, whoa, how we get here? Brian told us to just pay attention where going. And now we're paying attention. And now we're bad place. We're bad place. And it's not a no through road you can turn around back. So the thing want to say lastly on this is if you do find somebody who is never initiating but occasionally giving you lukewarm responses. Try and figure out can, the extent you can. Right what is it that they're dealing with? Because maybe they well -meaning people, but right now they have bigger fish to fry. that's possible too I like that one because that's, that's in our category here. That's the practitioner. practitioner says, listen, people busy. It's not malicious. You know, it's, it's, it's, you just, you just, you don't know. You can't know. know, mean, don't have all information. People just busy like and I've and I've had plenty of bosses like this that I say like listen did not be malicious. They're not trying to throw you under the bus. They're not trying to make you look like fool in meeting whatever. They're just careless because they have no time for anything. Right. You know, they would like to come across as warm engratiating and they'd like to show the true like. The true knowledge and experience they have. But they're just underwater right now. like this for many years. Too busy to do good job. Yeah, just six shooters in every direction just firing left. Right. Yeah. And it's not fun. mean, it's not fun work for somebody like that. They're good. They have good intentions but they're drowning. Yeah, think if that is the one person again, work boss you think can get help from. One things can do is maybe just reach out them, not with your ask, but what it that can do to help you, right? Take some this off you. Maybe can go around some reports for you what, don't knoww whatever might be. If can do that suddenly now you'll noticed as somebody is trying helpful without any kind of expectation return. Build it up over time. Sure [UH] I'll give you another anecdote. work for a managing director like this and MDs are basically CEOs UK. So this guy ran company. Right But in meetings he was present and happened mention that I like to carry cables my car case somebody needs jumpstart. his personal assistant, they were called at time. She was side road one day. Yeah, happened notice her. Right? So I stopped. gave jump start and she so never thought anything of it. Months go by months. And suddenly he raised that point and said people need be more kind of helpful to others. Take Om for example, he did blah How did even know that? I didn't tell him. She must have. But it changed whole dynamic between us because now the door is open. So can in and say if you have a minute and before know that took 15 minutes his time and he actually listened. So I'm saying just be out there without always looking for return. Right? Yeah. Yeah. be good person what I'm saying Speaking being good person, know, this arguing agile. So will tell you like the, the, the I'm busy. I'm not malicious. I want to burn your home down when I hear this one. Like I like this. This worst one for me because I'm like oh really you're busy like because usually the person who's saying this has some like modicum power the organization[UH] They're some senior level the organization and they've just like lost control their calendar and their phone and whatever. You know, these up all hours the night. They don't exert any control. But like why have all that power you're not willing to use any to least like throw the reins around your life and you know have some kind of [UH] at least able grab the steering wheel at Titanic and like take it one way to left right. But you're not willing even reach out for the steering wheel. Come on. Like it can see it completely concedes the point that the that the who was the cynic the no, practitioner, the practitioner says, people busy. It's not something maliciousness, Brian. You just need grow up. People busy It completely conceives the point to say like am very busy and therefore I'm not going to like I'm not go out of way care for anything or anybody because I am busy with bunch other nonsense that like is the stuff that you're doing that you're busy with even important at all. Well, that's key point. So that this reasons why you can't influence how busy they are or not. One things you can do is to try and offer take something off their plate. Right? Yeah And might just give you something trivial that they're spending their time on. Maybe they don't even know that they can, know, use certain techniques that you might actually know about know, summarize this, you know, do this report, summarize whatever might be. If you can do that, you're now there. Good books already because you've given them little bit more space on their calendar. That space is yours. Claim it. Right. Go and ask for those five minutes and you're in. So just do that over time and hopefully you'll get that [UH] assuming that is the one person you actually need get with [UH] if not try look for somebody else. All right, let's move to takeaways here. have have takeaway here. says stop asking why they left. I'm assuming this is people have like fallen out life when you've left company and start studying the ones who stayed and what they had common, which is, I will say, just purely from a exertion of effort and an economy of effort. This is where you put your put your effort into all people still there, man. This is you're get the biggest return. Right? mean, it's clear. Worry about people didn't show up. you worry about them for? Right. It's real negative headspace. You really like get to get out that man let's everyone who showed up post exit name what each had. If they prior tie, a shared stake know, some some sort like direct ask where had like favors back forth, that kind thing. You're trying figure out why, know, you're trying figure why. Sometimes might not figure like This is the WIIFM! Right? What's in it for them? Yeah, yeah, and really both those one and two to really just say spend your time people stuck around and that's it. Right. That's it. That's should spend energy which I feel like that's it. can't give better advice that. everything so far has been peers and vendors that we've talked about or know consultants whatever talked about. So it's whole different discussion when the person who knows weaknesses and is supposed help you is also the person holding the spreadsheet like weapon. it's whole different discussion when person who knows weaknesses and is supposed to help you is also person holding the spreadsheet like weapon. wow. OK, so for this one, I've been on both sides. So first, let's let's talk modern management models. OK, Marty Kagan in transformed. He'll never admit in the comments of this podcast, but basically every product leadership book, that they all say that your manager should be your coach. Like they should be helping you. They be mentoring you. They probably should be sponsoring you And because there's somebody who has direct influence over higher fire, you know raises rewards that kind stuff work They know your weaknesses. They work with you on them try improve. They spend their own political capital or credibility opening doors for you. Hopefully see our podcast on mentors, mentors versus sponsors. it is great. It is, it is of really, it's called, it's called your mentor. Can't get your promoted and never could. It's it's arguing agile two, six, seven. Your mentor can't get you promoted and never could. August 5th, 2026 It's a 52 minutes long. And listen, it is a tour de force. really good advice. It is, So they should be opening doors for you, your mentor. OK they should be acting as your sponsor And dare say they cannot do those acts without actually caring or a very good imitation caring. somebody and when somebody three levels up cuts line a spreadsheet and just like sends orders down just carry these orders out. know, don't don't question me. Right? that person is instructed to never speak to you again. that's thing that bothers me right there. Yeah, yeah, Because that role and stayed in contact. I have done that several times [UH][UH] I've ignore you know, being very careful to not talk about anything in context of the previous employer or their work. But sometimes it's not even that that the manager is told to not deal with you. It's HR that dictates the policy. course. Yeah. Yeah mean this is fairly cool. So ideal state would be not necessarily your direct line manager that you know takes on this this this role and duty of being your sponsor and mentor. Yeah, maybe have a separate development leader and there is no rule that says only have one by way. So have development leader that is not your direct [UH] you know, reporting them directly. There's pluses minuses to that but mostly pluses. Right. Because they're not necessarily incentive to keep you a box. [UH] is this person promotable or they just doing what's expected? Right. In the kind reviews which your manager is going do. Yeah, but your mentor give you hopefully some honest and frank feedback that can work off of. So try and foster those if that structure loose it is doesn't exist in your organization create one reach out to somebody who's not your manager and say would you willing to mentor me. Yeah. What's worst that happen? They'll say no. And if they do reach out someone else see. That's, that's issue with like the cynic here says H .R. said no contact. My hands tied. Like I guess manager says no contact. My hands is, what your sponsor is someone who isn't in your work chain command? What they're somebody like HR doesn't know anything about them? What they don't even work your work? Your sponsor? Now what? Right. know HR has no power. Like I would laugh at somebody like this. And and I have as as manager before when And when had HR came down, told story the podcast where HR came down and said, well we've reduced your budget by X amount dollars. said, that's strangely is exactly what this one employee gets paid. said, yeah, you fire him. And also you got fire him by end the day. was like, why are you telling me I fire him? You made decision remove budget. Why don't you fire him? Right. You know, and then I help that person redo their resume. know, after that, after were gone, help them redo their resume to to land better roles served as reference. are we professionals this role or what we doing? You know. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. think takes the human element out of it when you do it that way because each told me to do this. So I need to abide by those rules. mean if if I'm give that one real credence like legal exposure is a real thing. Sure. It can happen but it is narrow. the typical person is just a position got reduced in budget and they want to draw down QA department from eight people down to six whatever. Like there is no like there is the exposure is very limited there. There's no reason burn all personal relationships. That's little ridiculous It's little draconian for a policy. And also, and also, even if it's draconian and even have follow it and even they had the mechanism of forcing follow it, by way, I can't just text you. That's a stretch. OK, even if can I show somebody text six months later like that just I mean this person worked me for year. You me I can't shoot text like, hey man! Did everything work out good where are now. I can't that. You should absolutely do that. And I will say also the enforceability of this is very fickle because what if [UH] you know what they applied somewhere and that person called you for phone reference. Right. So you're phone with them. So give reference[UH] where's enforceability that? They're not record you and say to your employer, hey, this person said this. They're not do that because they're only looking make sure that they're hiring right person. So yeah, agree that. I think it's crazy. But some these draconian policies are really, really draconian. It's know, why do we still have know what's funny about those policies is the higher get organization. Like I think like a CEO hiring is exclusively just people talking other people. Oh yeah. Well, not just CEO by way. Right? No whole C suite. Right? Yeah. Right. And even the next level down it's all about who you know, who knows you. Yeah, yeah. And mean, and also like who's willing to talk about you when you're not room. Right. a positive manner, which is the sponsors mentors sponsors podcast did. it's again bananas me that I can't have contact with you when I know that all of senior positions work this way. It's like what is happening here Are drawing a dividing line world putting people into upper lower? It's just not cool. It's not cool. and I'm not doing it. just staying under radar, right trying to play safe. That's what I mean. I get it. I'm I also get the practitioner here on screen says, hey, I would stay touch. but but I'm drowning know, that on that one, I'll say this, right? If you really are drowning, that's not reflection on the person who's asking to stay in touch with them. That's reflection on you deal with it. Look the mirror and say you need to get over your calendar. Remember that other category. was like know, I'm not come around on this one. I get very angry people say this, this one well because listen, when I, when I had employees that I would hire Not only was I the office every day, work at a minimum six hour weeks [UH] like had little tiny little kids at that point my life. Yeah. I remember I would get the office at seven thirty .m. I'd be the first employee. I don't mean first employee my department. I mean, I'd be the first company. Yeah, know, I made coffee. I literally make coffee. I say that. But I actually did that. It was, was me. was me and Joni. Like shout to Joni. She, she didn't listen podcast, but was, was me Joni be one the first people in the office. I did this when was working 60 hours And did just fine doing this. Sure. So don't tell me you can't stay touch because you're drowning. Right? Like that's a ridiculous, you know, and also Tony Stark (built this in a cave...) ridiculous. Yeah, ridiculous. No, when I did that, the phone would ring around seven, 15 every day without fail because our customers is one those guys that is a real commercial. guy just had a good heart. You wouldn't know So he'd call you and he had son on speed dial. So he'd dial and then I'd inevitably because I'm the first one that I'd pick up phone and you know deal with him. Right? Just talk to him. But I'm project manager that point. I'm not in CS. I'm not customer support guy. So I'd make notes [UH] placate him saying I'm pass way and as customer support manager when he gets here. But after some experience, I could actually help guy. Right hands on and technicals. I was able help him. So did that. And then called during normal office hours when other people there to see as people pick up phone and he asked me. So here we situation where he knows he can get help from me but I'm not right person to call but he would ask for me. Right? that point, choice. could say, hey, CS, take this. Right? Or help guy out. I chose latter. Yeah. Right. Because that's what do. long term, after few years, he and I basically stayed touch. And when he left and he went Annapolis Gazette, he called me and said, I need reference. You're so thorough with what need. I'll be happy to give you reference. We continued along those paths [UM] I didn't have H .R. saying can't do this or anything, but just to say you stay touch with people. Right? never know who can help you. about takeaways. Stop assuming that your manager, that your manager's investment survives the org chart. Start noticing what they do for people who leave. Yeah, that's solid point. Number one, watch how leaders treated that last person who got laid off. Number two, ask, has this manager ever referenced an ex report? Next person, person who, you know, used work here. Do they talk about people? Yeah, they used work. Yeah. So those two things.like do they talk about anybody or as soon as people leave? They never existed in like at all. Is proof out existence because I've been workplaces like that. Oh yeah, have to. But I'm also on that number two. I've been workplaces where managers do refer to X reports often in a positive light. Yeah you know, very rarely negative light. But yeah, yeah. So now [UH] you might be hearing all this and thinking that the answer is we'll just make yourself valuable. And that instinct, will tell you, is a trap. It's just really cut in. It's trap so it's trap and talk about it. because if you listen to business podcasts, there's one fix that everybody reaches for. OK, every business podcast out there will give you the same advice You've got to make yourself valuable to the other person first and then the relationship will be reciprocated only then. Oh, what great assumption they make also that they give this advice to young people or people at start their careers oh, don't have any experience, so you got make yourself valuable. That is a con if I've ever heard it at all. Like con in like in the in the like Bernie Madoff method of saying it's a con, OK? It's a con seeking to extract extra effort for no pay, dressing it up as quote belonging. OK, follow that advice to its end and build life where you're exactly as loved as you are useful.[UH] not one ounce more. This is so true, especially the services industry if you're work for consulting company, typically you come in, you know, near at the bottom ladder, you find yourself pulling in these sorts of efforts. Right [UH] Work really hard because know and know what have look forward to is you'll be a partner three years. You'll partner soon Yeah. Soon Yeah, just don't hold your breath, folks. OK, so you know, but then see people promoting promoting to be a partner kind of overtaking you. And technically, cetera, cetera. they're not good you. However, they're getting up and overtaking. Yikes. Right. Yikes So yeah, yeah, this is definitely big cost. And I got right here. got scenic for you right here. that what you just said you're to turn right around and the cynic's going to say listen though nobody owes you. got earn your seat daily. And the minute you stop trying earn that, that, that hungry person has got that person is grinding day. They're going to take it from you. So every [UH] my book. Sorry. Yeah. Every business leader is salivating this. They're this is is how work. Right? You know, we're on golf course. We're people pulling 90 hour days. That's great. Or weeks whatever. Yeah, this is great. I agree. The Senate here solid Nobody owes you anything. Right? You've got earn your seat daily. But but know where you stand. Look around you. Just don't do it[UH] blindly. Keep your eyes wide open. there's something my head I'm not sure even makes sense because wrote down. says valuable to someone survives job changes meaning like they, they keep pulling you to keep you under their wing whatever. Theoretically, theoretically valuable for something like it doesn't last past the role. I don't know that that seems just cynical as the nobody owes you. got keep earning it. Yeah, yeah, it's close to that, right? OK, I think I don't know. Yeah, yeah, it's close to that. I mean I mean these like you know just grind harder folks like they just it all goes over my head. the other categories here that the academics saying most social social values exchange. That's not exploitation. That's just like that's way that tradeoffs made in adulthood. Like you trade your, your, your time for money whatever and people paying you have more experience, so they give you less money whatever. I'm sorry. What, what did you say? what, what you trying apply? Yeah. Yeah. think this probably the weakest of lot on this one. Yeah. the person that is in it day day will just say listen, being useful like that's just good career advice. OK, it's you got to put in work. That's it. Like that's that's the hard advice that that nobody wants do. Everyone's looking shortcut, but you just got put in work. times hear seniors tell you that they went through the same mill and that's why you should. Right this is the process guys. You've got you've got grind your way up. So [UH] when hear that, I hear someone who's hurt saying because I had it the hard way. Why you? Exactly. Yeah, yeah, absolutely. none this is actually like raising your usefulness like maybe raising your busyness. I don't know. Like it's, I'm not convinced any this. I think practitioner probably is the best lot. Being useful just good career sense and genuinely does work overall on category. Let's talk average. So being useful whom is not just your company, your customers notice that. Right? You may find yourself working for them that one day if you're useful. them. And you may find yourself listen, I like my take away here. I'm be real short in this category because this category annoying OK, stop stop optimizing to be more useful or stop stop aggrandizing the idea. Yes, a being more useful. Start sorting which ties are to you as a person and which one are to your function. Right? Or your job role whatever to say. So here's, here's, here's how to do that. Right first, name three people valuable to you if you had no title. Like got cut today, who people are still valuable to you? And if all people work just dropped off right now, I tell you something about your work right now. OK, like you need find better work. Yeah, immediately. Yeah So step two, ask would they take my call I had job or they didn't know me. Right. And then number three, you want to spot that family language. to read it as a retention tactic. Anyone using this, you know hey we're family buddy. They're smart enough not use this family language anymore. Right. But they're still using language like this. can stay here. There's a bright future. There's lots opportunity here. They still use this family language. Yeah, it's just under guise something else. OK, yeah, these great pragmatic kind of steps that you can take. Also, don't we talked about work related context here, but can be outside. If have mentor outside, let's say, know [UH] anywhere in your industry or at church wherever, those people also fall into the same category. Right? So they're there valuable you, they're always there. be there for you. Yeah. Identify those people and nurture those relationships. again, like I've, I've connected with tech leads stuff that work that I think they're super valuable about ideas off of occasionally I'll talk them stuff like that. Like they would into these categories like they're one three people there. They're super valuable. Every time I talk them, got great advice, Somehow the relationship has evolved past that one work center their work center whatever that's, his takeaway. So you know, let us know comments what's most we're family thing that a company has ever said you. We are friends. Oh, and us let us know. then let Follow up and let us know how long after they give that language. Did the layoff happen? So the best one I'm pin the comments. I'm all about pinning comments So if if be more valuable is trap. Then let me introduce you to another trap with an entire industry built around it. And they take credit cards they're willing to accept credit card. little three percent pricing fee that. Zell Venro. OK, so this, this great great segment here. The loanless industry selling you back so I at the network, I was at networking event last night. OK, I talked to, talked to friend mine, Jeremy. He owns marketing firm. He And about this exact we were just talking thing. OK, so recently he, he was talking about people that sell you like how make podcasts stuff like that, like courses online. He's like, oh, they're very successful. I'm yeah, course they're successful because 95 percent podcasts don't get past episode eight. So literally he's like raking bunch money from people who are never do podcasts. Right? Ninety five percent people takes money from are never to. They're to produce like four five episodes, maybe post them because might even post them. But they've already paid for whole year. But paid whole year. Right. Same thing. People sign up tools well. And he was I don't really know you can like blame them whatever. Like anyway, that on the founder side of the business, the product manager side is really bad. The founder side of business is like 10 X worth. Sure. There are so many people out there and it makes me genuinely angry dealing with folks that I see are just like it's scam. They're just trying take money from people. and I understand the entrepreneurs, the folks that are out there, the solopreneurs. Right. understand why they fall into this trap because like getting ghosted produces a feeling that has like no explanations attached. OK, so you want attach some kind of explanation to it. And someone out here Internet trying tell just pay me six hundred twenty five dollars and I'll help attach meaning to this. Like you can't work. Is the market? Is your personality? Is it nothing at all are just a bad industry? There's no reason. So like somebody is basically like the master classes, the accelerators, the paid access founder communities, you know, five hundred dollar month slack channels whatever they're promising like They got you with a narrative, got you story like you're not visible enough. You're not working enough. You're not just, you're not grinding hard enough Om! Nine, nine, six 4 life. Yes, they got you with the story. then they hit you with - now let me get that credit card. OK so that's this. It's a loneliness industry. Boy, boy, I feel like after this one, I'm going need to take shower [UH] So anyone can do this on Fiverr. And you're kind hiding behind this kind of aggregator website And all need do is just put your name out there and somebody is going gravitate you and say, oh, see on LinkedIn. You've worked for while. You know you seem have lot followers, cetera, because I think that it's like that's measure success today. You have thousand plus followers whatever. That's just, you just, you just hit scenic. know, even know scenic. Yeah, it. Yeah. Cynic says says your network is your net worth. Oh my goodness. What great saying might steal that network is your net worth. Oh my goodness what's the quality of your network? That's, that's one the things that need kind of quantity or quality. you're to pull the cover and have look underneath. It's like are you one those people that simply just go out and harvest as many contacts as possible? you are. OK, that case, I might not to be pulling out my credit card. That's they're say. Yeah, know. So when you look that I mentioned Fiverr reason. I'm not badmouthing platform. It's the people that are using the platform. When get on there, lot people say things like, oh, you're trying get into law school or med school or whatever. Let me guarantee your admission. You're how can anybody do that? Right? And then they'll say, well, help you with your essay They'll use the idea write your essay for you. But you've got defend that in an interview if you're lucky enough to get one These people haven't ever applied to any school. Oh boy. Right. But but oh my mastermind, my, my over Internet coach helped me get job at Meta or where they helped me. You know, there's be one person. Sure, sure And these the people that have a trailing list of alphabet characters behind name. X Meta, X Google, this, X that. Right So they're trying to lend credibility to themselves by putting these things their title. Yeah, I'm not suggesting they didn't work there. They maybe did, but their ex maybe for reason. don't know[UH] don't know. Just putting it out there. Oh man, I anybody listens podcast is going be familiar with the survivorship bias of, but they help me So that means because they help me, every sign up is justified, every dirty tactic, every spam, know, because help me how much did they help you? Did they, they call contact Google and get them to hire you over other people? that how they? I don't think did. They didn't. You got in there. How you know? You know, mean it's like it's like your own back. it was like they opened fortune cookie. And one those numbers was lot your number. So like the fortune cookie was the direct cause of this is such terrible category I hope if you have accelerator or you have one these like paid slack channels whatever that you feel is helping you. I'm going to need to comment and tell me I'm wrong. you comment, you tell I'm wrong. You tell me the channel and I will go pay and sign up for it to find out how wrong am because I'm telling you now your sponsor, if go back to the arguing agile two, six, seven, sponsorship. Your sponsor will not be asking you credit card. if they're asking credit card, are scamming you. product management is the worst this but it only like second place worth behind entrepreneurship slash startup. Right? Oh yeah, they're the worst. And in this scenario, the WIIFM is pretty clear. Right? They're asking for a credit card subscription of some kind. Absolutely. The, the, they, these folks, the if they're only if they're get pass any way form, they did not inflict the wound. OK, they're just cashing in on it. Yeah, yeah, I agree they're twisting knife is what they're doing here. They're tell you. They're tell you like, didn't, I didn't, didn't didn't shoot the sheriff. I just work emergency room and I just like patch people up. That's I'm doing I'm just patching people up. What's problem that? It's not my fault. This same we had discussion in the in the we discussion in the meetup that I went to that hiring was completely broken before. And now in the era of AI, it's totally broken broken on steroids. Like was, was broken. Like these big like workday platform stuff like that just just terrible. And like you get 300 applications, nobody look that past first 20. Nobody will look them. And then now with AI, the people hiring jobs are using AI to sort through [UH] everything. And people looking jobs are using AI. So now we went from like 300 like 3000 and still nobody's looking anything. So everything was wrong got wronger. That's not word, but today it's a word. and nobody's looking back.