Good at an Unfunded Job? Now You're Doing It Forever | AA270

and I, were networking event recently where the subject came up that like a large company was rolling out a very large program for their software development. all was being done the program level. and the [UH] management didn't want fund scrum masters at the team level [UH] [UH] really any coordination role in any wa, shape form except this one person. So it provoked interesting discussion ran over all kinds time boxes. But said, know, this, would one podcast. they implemented quote agile but then they never funded the mechanisms to quote implement agile first place. So it's little bit different story Yeah, this is one because I think differentiating here is going be around, you know, if you're installing agile you know, where go? And sounds like this company decided certain places go and where you really shouldn't cutting. Right if to be successful. Well, that's funny because I thought this podcast was about like the sad part of making coordination roles like you're professionally what you're good at it's not job company was funding and got rid of or choose or just chose not fund. that job still exists. Like you'll hear it's role. It's job. It's it's a, it's it's game. It's fun for kids whatever. But it still exists. It just transitions off people who never agreed do it, who are not paid do it. And they definitely are not get any credit in the organization for it. And they're probably not qualified do because not everybody is is. And and thing is now [UH] sorry Julie. Oh sorry. Hit the music. Welcome back Arguing Agile. this is your first time. Welcome. I'm host product manager Brian Orlando. And this my co -host enterprise business agility leader and the maestro of product market fit Mr. Patel.. Oh, instant elevation. That's right. Stick that your pipe and smoke it[UH] welcome folks. If you have not already [UH] please like subscribe. It's very important. Very important. But I to present the problem that we're talk about today in three parts three acts is problem in three acts. That's I'm say. part one where companies think they're being cute by treating coordination as a part time job. That's right. part time job. It was somebody's job, full time job. And now we're saying it's just role part time job. Right? Cute, right? see what did? Yeah, see that feeling cute might cut someone's job today and then whoever ends up doing that job number two, what happens whoever ends up doing that job? And number three, why it's never a random person that ends up doing that job. It's not right. looks random, not random. And then the part that I'm really excited to [UM] which we won't get to the end podcast. So I'm like a roller coaster of sadness and elation and sadness and gladness. That's right. Sadness glad glad glad glad bags and hand rags whatever. I got. Sorry, I don't remember what the name song was handbags and glad rags. that the song? It's been long time since I I'm excited to talk about why the company would sign up for a heavyweight framework. Go through the pain of paying for people learn about it and then then not fund it when rolls out organization. Like, like you're going Olive Garden but you're not getting endless breadsticks what I'm saying. Like I try think a better but I couldn't think better case. like know what, I'm good. don't need endless breadsticks. That good metaphor. Why are you even here You you're here for the bombless salads and the endless breadsteaks. Yeah, I'm trying come back on salad. Like what? great one like, oh, saw a[UH]let's go so let's start with stating the thing that I don't hear people talking about enough. I don't hear people talking about all. Actually, now think about it [UH] There are two popular ways convince yourself that you don't need dedicated facilitator [UH] First, you're to automate away. Right? We're let .I. do it. know, let the tooling process handle that coordination. Oh, that's we're do or two. We're just going underfund We're going to leave the role informally covered, informally covered. And we're to let people step up. Take leadership. hear that. What I, what really hear is we're make it just enough painful for them so that they would, you know, dress wounds themselves like they have to deal with it because they're in the thick of it. So it's not funded, what they do? Right? Oh and just they'll take care it. don't necessarily have fund it. I'm glad brought that up because got some steel man points here that say the process should handle this. That's, that's the whole point of buying all these tools and laying out this big heavyweight process and buying all these certifications whatever. know, whatever bought, you know, consulting hours, whatever, whatever is. Right. That's the process is going be our, our eyes ears now or or or no, no. That's, that's cynic. That's cynic. cynic is we spent all this money and it should handle now. Yeah. So think each of these now each the three, I know the practitioner. I will get practitioner. But think each of these we now have tackle from a dual perspective. Right. If you're automate it or you're just not fund it. So you're automating it, the cynic says the process should handle it have not seen a scrum master but resolve impediments or anything like that. so[UH] that that. That's said don't jump ahead because that's a practitioner. Right? The practitioner is one who's say listen, I'm doing this every day. We can just have the idea. can write little bot and he just queries all the channels. And you know, he as long as has access to all the channels and as long has access to the jira or whatever the system he had been a long time or whatever the system you've been using. Right? Yeah, I can handle it. Yeah, well, it's not read room first all. But that's beside the point. we're assuming here that the AI bot doesn't have those kind of human sensory perception. let's let's stick on this one for second because what I said yesterday was the yes, the AI, but agree with you. Yeah, can do it. Yeah, it's great[UH] that's not that's nothing that scrum master does though. Right? Like scrum master does like when the about gives report you're like, what? And then say why did and then whatever your next thing is out mouth. And then you want, you actually want person go answer that for you and or investigate it. now you're cracking with scrum as a job is. Now you're now you're it. Why is this? Oh, give scrum master. I mean, guess get random developer whoever team and that is who you're get because they're, know, scrum masses anymore. Yeah yeah. And again, try not jump ahead, but it's predictably random that point too. It's not truly random. Yeah [UH] But the process should handle it is the idea of, well, we installed all heavy heavyweight frameworks. We trained everybody. Why are people not just stepping up and and being like water and filling these roles You hired people, not amoeba. mean, it's, yeah, it's hiring amoebas. Was that option? I don't know. guess they never did the academic. Are we moving on the academic? I think we should because I'm trying think of where we would hire amoebas. That's all that's my brain right now was trying to figure out way to have to though. Right. If you're the academic because well -designed system reduce the need for all this overhead [UH] Right. Right. this is you're not holding it. This is. Yeah, exactly. Right. So but show me well -designed system where you know this can actually happen. I've not seen one thus far the p's come into the picture now. Right. So it's the people, the processes, and the politics of an organization come into the picture. And this is where bot cannot handle this collectively. All these different bees and whatnot. So I think you know the academic is academic but they haven't lived day practical world. was going say especially not if that bot is opus five because it will send you a doctoral dissertation in your inbox for a year and you won't read it because you'd like, what is this garbage saying? Summarize this sentence say you should be having some message. That's right. That's right Oh boy. And then[UH] yeah, practical I want back practitioner. Oh, just have us just have a bot do this. Just have bot a bot and tell us where our gaps are where we should be doing. So I think can read board tell us the highest priority is. Like Kanban-bot-3000 and I threw 3000 there. see, because was like I wanted that 60s optimism. Yeah, three to three thousand fired by Hal. But again, like bot, like bot can't, it can't dig into anything. can, can certainly help you become little more efficient in terms of documenting things and so on. you can scour across your share points and whatever else Google drives. But again, like none that, none that being what [UH] what good scrum master does. Exactly. Exactly. Now can help good master find things. Right. Especially if the plethora of documentation etc is spread across board. You know, as a human scrum is have to do leg work. This can help you do that. but doesn't replace the scrum master such. All right, let's see. Let's see what better points here on this category here are [UH] I can send ticket updates, not form relationships. Oh, shots fired. Oh, definitely shots fired. can, can, you can tell that I, you can tell I had hands this.[UH] I can send ticket updates, not form relationships the people that you need to get things over finish line. Yeah, let's face all know this. going get something done? It's who you know. you to, you to feel like you don't know**** about human relationships and like getting things done through people that go read Winning with People. It's a job [UH] Not John Carter [UH] winning with people like I did. That's my that was my book week this week. And[UH] oh, know what? know else had strong shades of the[UH] John Maxwell episode we did. It hasn't out yet, the episode we did about work relationships and strong shades that one. was like some relationships are temporary because [UM] neither party is willing to put an amount into cultivating like like would cultivate garden. if you want garden as like can feed a whole neighborhood forever. The amount time got put in to that garden and amount of effort is different than if you just like making sure tree is growing that you know gives you some fruit something like that. I wish I'd read that book before we did that podcast because have changed my opinion on lot we what we talked about that podcast. But this same thing [UH] and the AI bot is not forming any lasting relationships that are going go from workplace workplace. And the AI bot is not going to be go sit down at some overwhelmed tech leads desk to figure out why tickets not moving or whatever. It's also not able to discuss and negotiate things with a dependent team. Right? Yeah at best it can simply through discussions listening to all that just document dependency. That's where stops. Oh no [UM] We can write it. No, no, you can't. can't. What are do? Have your bot talked their bot? Absolutely. Yes. Yes. Yes. That is be pushback here. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah It's not good pushback but that is It's a terrible pushback. I listen, mean automating tracking reporting You should do that anyway. You are tracking reporting, the status reporting. You should do that anyway. You should, you should automate any administration. Right. That is not value added where people are spending the time and there isn't commensurate return on their time. So yeah, agree Churning our reports, creating decks like there's no value you should do that anyway. But also like this fight that like seems a 20 year career I've like we've been automating things since very start my career. And we've been looking to automate things like none as new. But I don't, I've never seen anyone automating judgment calls. I get, guess you probably could draw line like judgment calls that are like within this bounds the scope whatever. And also that the impact is very light. you screw something up, maybe can hand those to an AI. can see that. But but also like aren't all these like flock cameras where they're like like they flag pack of Doritos and somebody's back pocket is like weapon something that aren't it's because they're using AI show on stuff that they probably shouldn't be. And there's no human review. So[UH] I even as I'm saying it, I'm like[UM] Yeah. You know, maybe not I don't know. Like this whole category companies like their companies are really choosing either we don't care this work is done not. That's, that's they're saying or we don't care we don't have any quality standard for way this work done. Yeah. Or they're saying look, you know, if you work here, you're just have to pull up socks and [UH] reach across and be a uppercase shape. Yeah. I mean that's they're saying. But but what they mean is I don't value any this kind work. Exactly. But that what they're saying by not funding these roles. I say roles because it's like you're throwing these extra job responsibility. know exist. honest, don't know exist. But those two things mentioned is like, well, work either isn't happen. No one's to coordinate across teams it's like Twitter where everyone's building the same thing and it's absolute chaos, you know, or the people doing it are doing it unwillingly and badly with minimal amount of effort. So they're never getting better at it, you know, or you far enough somebody who's actually legitimately good at it's not primary job. So it's just extra work. The better they do. They're not vested really. Because this is that last point is the argument for well maybe don't eliminate scrum masters altogether but we'll have one across five teams. Yeah, right. yeah. And the other point about, you know, these people that are kind of picking up work or forced pick up work. They don't necessarily have the skills to do that. Yeah you know, so they'll be OK, I'm developer or I'm a Kiwi, but I'm do this because you're telling to do it that I have to. You know, I'll just check boxes. Yeah, I had a developer. I worked with one. So I was on team one time of of pretty. mean, were, I would describe as pretty much all senior engineers, maybe some more senior than others, but mainly all senior. no juniors team. And we had one guy who was a very typical leave alone. Let me do my coding. You know, give me it. Let me take task off the off of the rip a ticket off the list and then go back my corner and leave alone until I finish it kind of guy. He wasn't, wasn't a coat over your shoulder with other developers kind of developer. That's just not way was. And the team that team rotated scrum masters every two weeks month. don't remember was And whenever was his turn, everybody would know and everyone would groan, you know not not just me, everybody on the team would groan because they knew that would put the minimal effort into doing it. know, wasn't good at running board. You know, he, he didn't do the walk the board method. know, mean, did the whatever. Three questions. You know, he did the worst method and anything that we had that we needed from other teams or things about process needed be, you know, run up chain whatever. Like he wouldn't do any that or take whole sprint do like one minor thing because coordination communication for him was very difficult. And was not good. He was not good in that role. Yeah But the team's policy was rotation of that role so that everyone kind like theoretically their process was if everyone gets a chance do it, then over time you will slowly get better at it. And know, there's other had peers. The team is very tight. would help other. But he was not good and never improved in that role. And [UH] that that's my experience this one of like some people just they don't want to do that and they're not get better because they're be fighting whole time. Like where go there? The only way from there is slippery slope. Then you say, well, if those people are really just not good people, people, so speak we'll just pass. Right? Yeah. But you know, John here, Mary here, they're great people. So they'll do it all time. I think can last a long time like that. But I don't think that that type of that archetype that describing just give my ticket. me go work alone whatever. I don't think that archetype lasts. I don't think it's like sustainable. All right. So we takeaway here is stop asking process can handle it or if AI tooling can handle it and start asking which failure mode you're going choose. is are we just let Jesus take wheel and nobody's do this. Right. Or are we going to hand over somebody part time and know throw that extra job responsibility on somebody else, which they're both failure modes. They are absolutely right. and nobody's assigned then have question ask yourself to be very serious about is what you throwing away here? Like what are saying not get done now? the other one is who currently decides when to escalate Cool. got rid of the, we don't, we don't use from asking. let body that. OK, well, when something needs done. Who decides now? bot, it doesn't really know when to and when not to perhaps because have any kind rubric for that. So it's to either not escalate a lot often when should or escalate all time when it shouldn't. You know, so the latter case is actually worse. I think because escalating are get those that you're tired that. Yeah. But if you're designing about like you at that point, you're to have some deterministic logic some kind of waiting right inside your engine that says like if it's this kind thing sent to this person, this kind thing. So you still have make this decision of who makes decision? So you're still like you're breaking up the scrum as a job now and you're still going through trouble but it's just not efficient and it's not like the data not. say personalized that the data is not flowing the right people. The data not flowing people through the conduit a person like was before. Maybe that's maybe that's maybe that's like the wave future. It'sdon't know. I'm not convinced about that. You know mean there other reasons not convinced you don't really have the person in there to care for the team's happiness, for example. Right. You know, the team safety, things like that Yeah. a bot isn't do that. Right. that's job that you're describing right Yeah, yeah, we'll get this later. It's a job. I need to roll whatever. Yeah, could be role. be skill. So yeah, we'll get that. All right. well[UH] like let know comments which failure mode is your team living through right now. I know it's one of them. and then when me know that when the role lands on somebody don't think random. So if nobody officially playing, playing the role, playing role[UM] been million years since said playing role. feel like. So nobody's officially playing role, the real question ends being is doing this? Who's doing this role? You know before that question, question zero is, is anyone doing it? Is it getting done at all? Or are we just muddling through? We're just one big kind sort happy unhappy family. So there's a there's a tax here that we got pay. And if you live Florida you own home, might be paying more taxes[UH] but not calling them taxes. But we might don't know. see. But there's tax here that we're talk about that people aren't putting on budget spreadsheets and they're not appearing on your performance reviews at the end year. I'm to call it the competence tax. And that's being visibly good at an unfunded job. And it doesn't get you recognition[UH] or pay bump or you know [UH] anything. Even a pat back. It gets you drafted into doing that job forever for free. Wow. Yeah. So this is one tax that cannot be written off or or you know somehow avoided. Right? Yeah, you are going to pay this so that's the first thing. And as far as the organization is concerned, that is instigating all this. It is free for them free for you because only have 24 hours your day like anybody else. So it's going take toll on whoever you know or whomever this lands on. Right? You could rotate. doesn't matter now all you're doing is time slicing victim. So yeah, absolutely This tax real guys. You're pay no matter which mode you use from the previous discussion I want to like in the citation that I'm putting screen right now, this Tanya Reilly being glue lead Deb talk. It's, it's a, it's couple years old. If I remember there's no date on this article I'll try to remember. I'm terrible this but I will try to remember to add this link principal engineer at Squaresoft. Yeah, OK basically she's talking about doing coordination things like we're bad at onboarding and we're and we're bad at, know, having unit tests and we're bad at, know, go market or she doesn't call it to market. But you know, updating tickets and clerical tasks, stuff like that. You think stuff like that coordination tasks. And then when comes time to to figure out who should promote, we don't promote people that are the glue that keep things moving behind scenes. We promote the person wrote all the code or know, that's what says the the pictographs here that that apparently I'm not showing screen because I'm presenting screen but I'm not showing it here. There go. They're so giant. that. So yeah, it's like here. me, me show you some brilliant. First all, showing pictographs as the article. You know, here's was once software [UH] engineer. The new team is friendly but busy. And then she has win. And then know hey, let's talk about solving the right problem, you know, she's coordinating facilitating team towards a better discussion. And oh, onboarding bad. I'm step and help new employees. And you know, I'm help with unit test and I'm to, know, help figure out why things aren't launching properly[UM] you know, oh, now got all these calendar things because I'm involved in so many different things. Yeah. And now comes time like, well, who should we promote? Oh [UH] see, this one where I take issue because would say the hero developer who's up middle night, who's, know, fixing code or whatever. That would be person here. But her experience, whatever square space whatever said, worked. Maybe their culture different. Right? Yeah yeah. Oh, decrease the onboarding time. But we don't measure onboarding times. Right? Yeah. So that know or know being being like new employees like you know Buddy to help them when they're onboarding stuff that. Things like that. Is it? So the citations I have that are in here. the being blue one and the other citation which is here on screen Babcock Babcock Babcot. Babcock. I guess can't say Babcock recalled and Vesterland gender differences in accepting and receiving requests for tasks with low promotability gosh, was another one that we had was another source we had podcast. This is years ago. remember if you remember when Taylor, name was Taylor. She was where I talking about going podcast about non promotable tasks. It was called non promotable tasks. And then she fell off earth whatever. I've never gotten a woman to come podcast to talk about this topic. It eventually got. I knew it was get baked into another podcast at some point because it's just like it's out there. I don't really hear lot people in the sphere of software development and or product management and or leadership talking about this thing, But this again, I've had this my radar. I've just never had a woman that would come on podcast to discuss this thing because the idea that you're doing free work and not getting paid for it translates over to like the typical housewife who's like just because she doesn't work a professional job brings money doesn't mean she's doing nothing. Absolutely. She's doing one tougher jobs. That's, but that's, that's exactly this category that's exactly this category is just because just because you're not behind keyboard doing code writing lines code doesn't mean that what you're doing isn't positioning organization for success. In fact, it exactly is. It's[UM] I would argue it's more important because this is stuff that usually is like we expect this out of executives, except the executives can't be there writing code with you and you know negotiating this over that, know[UH] should we do this? Should we not do that? kind stuff there's all kinds echoes. Sorry to go long on this one, but there's all kinds echoes of other podcasts I've tried plan over time that never panned out. That are all this exact issue we're talking about now. And the steel man here is infuriating me because sinecure is says well just throw the team and somebody will be good at it [UH] And that person will rise top they'll they'll just do the job. It like when were networking event, somebody was talking about, this one person loves to do code reviews. know, they'll see something checked in and they'll just go start looking code because they really enjoy doing code reviews. I don't know that person was live on Mars because I can't stand doing code reviews. But I get it. know, you're about push a problem over the line. And that's last gate, know. And it's also like mentorship opportunity like, hey, yeah, do this, not that. And know, have all that travel knowledge, like, hey, how come you didn't use this method or this class or this whatever? Maybe didn't know about It's, know, it's, it could genuinely turn into an opportunity to teach somebody something that they didn't know about just because they just didn't know. And maybe the junior whatever. or maybe they're new to the organization. They don't know at this other module. The.I. does this me all time when I'm coding. I'm hey we use, I use to push media into the podcast suite. I have one class and that class says you hand file. I have certain things do that file. Now if somebody didn't know and they started working developer on my tools, they we're pushing the MP4 four, so I'm write a MP4 for you know push method something. right, Well no. Like we have, have class because there's lot shared data when you're pushing media. Yeah. The file type is actually sort unimportant. You know, mean, yeah, it's got a, it's got its own like routes stuff. Sure. But it's a, it's a multi-purpose sort of much. Exactly. But they wouldn't, they might not know that. And unless they get to the right, maybe made it maybe didn't like grep to the right module or whatever. know, they didn't find whatever less plausible with.I. because I would tell them what is. But you know in the old days you don't read the right documentation. don't talk right people. You don't know exists. Yeah. And that's this. Well, somebody's got be good at it. So then let that person figure it out. Let that person rise the top, And also there's another part the Senate here. says you've got be working job that want get promoted to. First, before we promote you into it. That's that's very old school. You'll find lot old timers with that attitude in corporate America. sure, nothing good coming of this point with the cynic. don't think somebody has be good this stuff. It's like, well, look my J .D. doesn't say that there. Also, you're not evaluating me on any this other stuff. Right? But that stuff is critical you being on teams. You know, you your teammates. Right. That you know go out and get your get your tickets approved for example. Right. Or your code scans approved whatever might be. doesn't really matter. They know people. Right They have to have report. These people are doing it because they're doing for the team. They're not doing it because know, the organization just simply says, well, figure out mean, they are. But that's practitioner here. practitioner say, listen the best facilitator on team is end doing the job of facilitator because they're best at it. And they'll always end up doing it because everybody else is just walk away from it[UH] They're going to walk away from it or they're going to realize that like we want best person doing job. So you now the permanent person does that job. Yeah. that creates that dependency on that person as well. Right? So one day they win the lottery and now team's back square one. That's such great fantasy, isn't The idea that it's like trickle-down economics yeah, we're going we're to, we're going to choose the best facilitator our team and they're just always do it. then don't be facilitator because they're so good at it. And we're going vote once year to make sure that person gets raise. except that doesn't happen. doesn't happen. Right? Oh my God. Oh boy yeah. Non promotable tasks. The non promotable tasks that's the academic point here which we already harped on left right. So I'm not to go deeper on that. But there's there's got better points here. [UH] good at it. this person is good at it. That's the system's way of never having to examine why we keep pushing this particular type person into that job. Yeah, yeah, I feel sorry for that person be honest they're not exploring other, you know, other aspects of their career aspirations [UH] that basically stuck pigeonholed the real problem there is that this, unfunded additional role person is taking on it doesn't earn anything. They don't get title of it. don't get raise out it. know, mean even your boss recognizes you to give you like a bell back for it That's not long lasting because you know if they leave, happens they leave? new person comes in. don't have history legacy. Right. And they're just go on the book and saying here's how we, here's how we [UH] ascess people. So you're starting again with that person. I mean, this is not good. Yeah, the unfunded competence is not a good implementation of process. It's not, but it's cheap. It's basically free for the org. Right. But correct. correct. Yes. takes toll on team. That's, I mean yeah, team pays for it every sprint forever. Yes [UH] again, it's much like trickle down economically. It is trickle down economics organizationally speaking. So the take away here stop asking who is the best at this and start asking. Sorry, I say start start stop asking who is the best at this thing and start asking who keeps getting asked to do this thing because if it's the repeatedly the same person then might have problem deal with or you might not have problem. might have opportunity to promote someone or give someone some recognition or some thing. You to do something. Right. And that's really point this is like know recognize these things that I've got three things here. Who's done role longest unpaid in addition their normal job you know responsibilities. Kick it back to our podcast video with Clint where your role starts ballooning and nobody knows does what. Right. Right. So would this person's resume show and demonstrate this work? Yeah, because I'm tell you you're not paying them and their resume demonstrates they are going above and beyond. you start your start your watches, gentlemen, because they're almost on way They're way out And then did they choose it or did they just default into it? Again, if you'reyou're I've been I've been hiring manager as person that cultivates talent like don't let all these things be just racking up and you're ignoring them. You're going lose all your people and then be this weird treadmill to be grindhouse like it's it's bad. Don't do it. It's bad. I just add maybe like a three or four. If you're the person, if you're this person basically. Right You don't choose the role but know you're doing it. Everybody's expecting you to do anyway. Yeah Think about it this way. Right? Is it covered in some way, shape or form on your J.D? Yeah, doesn't really matter it is not. But think about that because it's probably covered under that phrase that says and other duties as sign the other thing is you're doing it, take the opportunity to train up somebody else as well. Right. Right. That's help you because you're around one day, you're vacation whatever. Right. So the whole machine doesn't grind halt. And then eventually could start saying, look, I'll do this brain. this next brain. You know, just divide and conquer. That's what I'm saying. OK, so let know comments who on your team has been doing job that they've been good at for while without title or recognition or pay if know to show for it. Okay we'll wait right here. Yeah. Yeah. Incompetence tax. Right. And and with that we're off to our final question. why company sign up for installing a heavyweight framework and not train anybody or not put any facilitators place and not help installing the actual framework in the first place [UH] Why would an org do this thing? I feel feel now we need just pause. We need just pause for a second [UM] that's basically meme. That's a meme. Definitely that. was my, I was put that as my [UH] was gonna put that here the on the on the card. Why would the org do this So let's, let's zoom all way out. Nobody accidentally rolls[UH] I needed make out planning scrum of scrums, safe events. Whatever you call them puts them on calendar then just forgets to budget all role, all component roles that come that framework. OK, that's not oversight it's quite deliberate. Yeah, yeah, it's, it's, It's governance without any kind commitment. Yeah, I think might putting too much faith in any these scaling frameworks. You know, most them start with, you know, training. Oh, they're say most most start with you pay me they do that. They do that. Yeah. training number one. Right. In most these [UH] scaled frameworks. Sure. So who are you training? Whom are you training? don't have scrum masters[UH] who are you training? just training developers and investors? think just pick random people you're like you, you're a random whatever now or whatever. Oh wow. Yeah, guess. Yeah. the steelman I'm go right this one because my favorite one is like a hey at least tried train people. At least send class. We put some money in this one. That's right. That justifies everything. know, I mean, I know, know the practitioner is the real one here to say look, leadership wanted say we're done. We implemented safe or we implemented script scale or whatever the framework is like. We're agile now. That's the old agile transformation[UH] we implemented AI. now. That's, that's new, that's new hotness implemented. Really, new hotness. yeah, say? Institutional what does academic adoption often precedes functional capability. Oh yeah, right. Memetic. Ispmorphism. yeah. The academic has point. don't, don't think is strong as the practical. the academic has point. It's not good point, but it is a point of of listen, the institutions got to draw a picture us running before we actually start walking and then running and we're crawling right now. Like [UH] I understand what you're trying say but like I disagree. No don't. they don't. They can have bunch eagle posters and [UH] none us will ever be eagles. don't, don't know. don't. Yeah, think it's a far better approach to evolve into it rather than, know, just say, this is where we're be because you know where get the eagle posters. That's except none us have ever flown before. I like it. Right. Come on. Flap. Come Flapping. Come on. keep like I'm flapping my arms. ain't going nowhere. this category ridiculous. We have like what are better points? Leadership, gets the auditable visible part without having deal with the invisible part, which the people like that the people aren't like. They're not represented at my board meeting slides or my investor decks or what. know, mean[UH] the people part is not, it's not any part of that. don't ever, I'm never called task in front my investors from my board front anyone for the people part. So why would I ever put any money into it like that? That's this. mean, like they're forgetting the people that all these events. They always say [UH] people are a most valuable asset are people in our Eagle posters. I just to point that out. Like this a is a is supposed better point but it's a very cynical better point of like like but but I feel this on here to say if the actions don't match the words like just pay attention actions and just discard words because like if your leadership is doing this putting in heavyweight framework just to get the, oh, we're all agile now or whatever the whatever buzzword we all, are. We all use blockchain now we use AI know whatever is. Now you know. OK, now you know and can keep their resume updated and you can keep catching paychecks whatever it sounds. Yeah, it is cynical thing. But listen, can't blame the podcast be oh, podcast told me should watch. was listen, we're trying help you. That's right. That's right. Yeah. No, that's best point here. think, know mean as far as know, who, who is hero here? The person who implements whole thing. Yes, the champion for the rollout is going get the credit and and [UH] the three layers down the org chart where the people actually have like figure out do this thing like you're invisible at that point. So again, I don't think the better points ended up being [UH] a slugfest here of of keep their resume updated. And I didn't intend for that happen in this category. But also, why would the org roll out this heavyweight framework and not funded like something is fishy? Is there takeaway? Om? We need to stop asking what frameworks we're implementing. We to start asking to see the budget and to ask who is getting the credit. Who's behind this any new big initiative? Make sure it passes smell test. Scooby Doo. Scooby Doo was pulling mask off end. That's right. Could away wasn't for you darn kids. That's darn. That's not curse word. can do that. It's curse. It's not get bleeped. hope it's not be. might get bleeped. don't know. I don't know. Actually, yeah, don't know darns my list. Was this funded end end or just announced? Boy, if I had nickel for every agile initiative that was announced, not funded and and announced or agile now [UM] Yeah, sadly that's true. Who gets credit and who pays when the initial plan was wrong. Yeah, mean most time credit is you it goes the person announces it basically and then they disappear before you see the full value it. They're gone. Leaving those behind that pay for this whole thing. Do the work which is the teamwork. These are the teams basically. Right? Yeah. Well [UH] we started this podcast with the program that couldn't get budget for scar masses and we were ending it with handing you some additional roles that we're not paying you for. So[UH] congratulations. You got another job anyway. None resume. like. None this is by accident. OK, it's, it's, it's what, it's what compliance without adoption or without budgeting looks like when nobody's, nobody's tracking the difference. Nobody's, you know, nobody's really accountable for that. really is what I'm saying so here's the point where can pause podcast. you can write down what we have screen here. write sticky and can add it the edge your monitor to keep an eye on it if you suspect this is going on in your organization in next week so. So got a couple stickies here. I'm read out people that just listen this podcast Number one says you can automate this roll away or you can underfund it either way. You choose between two failure modes. Number one doesn't get done or gets done badly. Those your choices. Either doesn't done, gets done badly. So number one two points. Very weird. Anyway, number two is being good at unfunded work. It doesn't get recognized, doesn't give any money, doesn't give promoted, gets drafted and doing a forever [UH] competence tax forever. And number three is nobody accidentally rolls out a large framework. Could safe. Could be anything. Could be Jira (spit) could be anything. Nobody accidentally rolls out and forgets to fund all roles. That's an intentional choice. Absolutely [UH] not oversight. No, not oversight. things. So all out these three things do you have one that's going on monitor in the in coming weeks? All of them are to be honest with you on both sides my monitor. How's that? Oh I miss That[UH] Those three can't happen. There's never enough monitor. That's I'm saying. That's right. Exactly. right. Well, if [UH] if you've got monitor and you've listened this part podcast. We ask that you kindly like and subscribe and recommend this podcast Definitely. Thanks staying us. That's our folks. next time.