AI Product Management: Rediscovering Old Ideas (Lenny’s Summit 2026 Review) | AA275

welcome back to part two. So in part one I watched every talk from the Lenny and Friends Summit. 2026 So you don't have use Lenny Friends Summit, by way, is where all Silicon Valley product darlings go to strut their stuff on the main stage and talk about A .I. and maybe other things. But mostly mostly was yeah,[UH] that's absolutely true so whatever shows up on stage shows up from boss on slack the next Monday morning. So I'm trying these out as fast as we can. You know, and also we talked about last bucket. There's an undercurrent of like expertise amnesia where they're discovering things that many people have done and know over time. But since they discovered for first time, it's brandnew. Yeah, what's old is new again. So in the promise of this episode or we're listen to talks today which are building things and throwing them away. This the undercurrent of sure. The [UH] who's actually listening customers and then what survives in the A .I. age. Those the three big points. Fascinating podcast ahead. well welcome back our annual. your first time. Welcome. I'm your host product manager Brian Orlando and this my co -host Enterprise Business Agility Leader and the last man standing Mr. Om Patel. I like that. That's right. That's right All right. So on last episode, we talked about how code is cheap. If you remember that code is cheap Om, we're factory now. Yeah. Build it throw away 90 percent it least 90 percent and then call it lab or skunk works. That's right. three talks last time. I think I'm sure we listen to more than three talks, but all talks last time the ones that mentioned the feature. Yeah, yeah. We watch least three. Yeah the talks watched last time, every one them skip the part where someone has to take your do cool stuff, slop vibe coding, and then hand it somebody who actually needs maintain it [UH] Not lot that. And also the rework of I coded this thing. Hey, it's great, but that Yeah. Well I'm sure the developers love fixing stuff that I has quoted. Right. That's like maybe that's a podcast on its own. So no, no, no, You're, you're, you're the right place. Have seat. I got, got some news for you. Question like how you run lab? so the first thing started come you is you really use very, very small teams. For long time, the standard for team size was the two pizza team. So that's like eight 10 people. That's what Jeff Bezos came to. I think the [UH] I call two slice team. want one or two people. Max, you can get so far so fast with one two people that anything more, there's lot coordination overhead there's different visions and just doesn't work. One people is really, great. I'm stop there [UM] what think? think about a team two people? One or two? By the way, said one or two. One or two one. One person eat both slices. That's OK and I commonly do. will say that exactly boy boy. One person. So one person team is be completely unchecked. Right? It's do what they want because they have no checks balances. There's nobody else could say, wait, but it's applying words developed by experts. Not that like team we're developing expert but it's applying concepts to just better like a team one. You're not team. think it's a straight line extrapolation. Right? Yeah. Or what's the opposite extra extrapolation? Because it's like going way. Yes So that's exactly what's going on here using the vernacular of experts from the past and now extrapolating backwards. right. Well, hold on. I think starting work for other people is I call them pirates architects. So one person team pirate. They are slop cannons who are absolutely obsessed with finding value. That's, that's me. Like I'm just out there just doing lots lots stuff and I'm throwing away and it's all messy. But I'm find something really interesting. And then architects people who are like looking a messy system like maybe something that I built that's completely vibe coded and trying to help shape it into something that's valuable beautiful extensible. And pairing those types people together, think is very, powerful I don't to like last episode had some editing issues where we went too long between stopping pirates architects is his analogy analogy which which I know, Om, that you've been [UH] you've been [UH] we've been known for good analogies now then but pirates and architects, that it's kind **** analogy, isn't Like what the **** is pirates pirates? should be pirates and explorers, shouldn't it? Or something like that? Yeah [UH] pirates and pilferers something but not architects. Where they come from. Are they boat all time? don't know. Yeah, like can think of like 20 other things that work with pirates, pirates architects I posted on social media about this. there's a paper on. if find it. Is that the Simon Wardley one? Yeah. Wardley one. Yeah. About [UH] pioneers and explorers and settlers. that's he's trying to reference. Right. Right. Badly is not going to see. It's not landing on same dart board for slop cannons and pirates, Well, but they're the same thing. So that doesn't work. No, but architects certainly is like out of left field. Anyway, We're continue with video But [UM] this is Dan Shipper way from Every still not 100 percent certain what every does. But[UM] it's podcast. Valley Bro podcast. Yeah. Good. We definitely need more those. Yeah. Oh, It's a Silicon so he's about show graphic because in his story [UM] the presentation he tells a story. Let me advance the graphic and I'll pause there. OK for the people listening on audio. So if you're [UH] watching then I've got the I've got the now it's internal slide Don't say slides because in the comments these videos like we didn't use a slideshow or whatever. were very, it's obvious he's looking down at something stage. That's So like, yeah, yeah, call own slides he's got the labs team the far left lab only labs team. And remember, he split his labs team between pirates and architects. So the pirate is the guy just vibe coding or sailing high seas whatever. know. Whatever he's doing. Yeah. so the lab person, because it's not team, right? It's person. The lab person is over here left. And then he's saying that this KateBench top, see it says KateBench. He's saying we have somebody on our staff that she writes correspondence and she's excellent at writing. And everybody like try it. Everyone wants to. Everyone [UH] has aspirations be as good of a writer as Kate, whoever Kate is. And he trained bunch stuff on Kate's writing and wants whenever people have correspondence, want to send like out. They want to run through KateBench so that you know [UH] it basically elevates the writing quality of everyone in the organization as opposed to just teaching people be better writers. Oh, don't that [UM] Katebench might well be just agent. We don't know. he, explains it. That's I'm telling explains OK, Kate real person his organization that he's trained on he's taken a bunch of her writing samples and trained his he's not really trained model. guess just threw it like chatGPT whatever, like know, copy these examples. Yeah, I agree be better presentation actually trained a model, you know, up on this specific thing. it's just the writing model. And maybe that's maybe that's who knows. Maybe that's feature[UH] I like fine tuned models that sit, you know, just inside organization that do a specific purpose. Anyway so we talking about actual interesting things. But he's talking about how to get things ready to move through the like the SDLC is basically like how read this slide. So it goes from lab team. lab does cool stuff. They work with one user, this KateBench. It's internal user. They, run out internal use case with people that are completely inside their ecosystem, people that held hostage. And then they, then they move to early customers, know, to larger audience. And then it's ready to scale once they prove that there something there that there is a there there. I hate that phrase. The DC folks love it! There's a there there. Yeah. But look the sequence this, it's there's this considerable rework possibly by the time you get around to scaling it hasn't been built in. Yeah. From ground up, it's kind of bolted on at the end. know, so the pirates might love this but the architects not so much. Yeah when we get this[UM] internal use stage, this is the time where I would then bring in an architect. I have one particular who work with my team. name is Yannick. He's fantastic [UM] And Yannick to Yannick goes and takes this like messy thing that kind works and makes it really great. So now we have whole dashboard of, OK, like for each document, how many how many suggestions were accepted and then how much work is remaining [UH] for Kate to do after what the edits does after the agent goes does the edits. And can see we're improving. And his job make like real system can improve compound in ongoing way. I to back show this. There's lot stuff here. Yeah, sure that I'm not sure what's valuable here like guess that's Yannick's job who's a architect. But like isn't he just talking about like a product manager's job? Like don't, I'm very confused. It is confusing to be honest This is handoff. then you're thinking to yourself, what does Yannick do rest his time Yeah. What does Yannick do after daily stand up? Like he sits in fear the CEO's next project. Maybe I think that's probably what's happening. I like the constraint as I see it in the flow things here. in game just outlined where he creates all the things and is slop canon. And then Yannick follows him around and you know he pings him. He's like getting my office. know this next thing you're doing whatever Boy a scary world. mean this is the handoff culture Yannick just like follows around and says, what's next? What's next best thing? What happens this guy gets hit bus or decides, know, he wants cash out whatever. It's is company just out ideas that point? Well, they're miss him for sure. Right. Because you know, he is the constraint here. But looking at this, one's also left wondering, do they have product managers? What they do? don't, mean [UH] they don't. point where he's just doing R&D and run all around. it sounds like what they've really discovered is the project model but like a founder led project model yeah, yeah. who's talking customers in West the way? I assume he is, but don't know. It can't everywhere. don't think customers mentioned his talk[UH] really, don't. They're just minor annoyance. Speaking minor annoyance, let's move on. The danger really now with product organization is that more we automate stuff to AI to do and more we automate it or tell teams to use AI, you kind like create this separation from execution and from learning. It's not a bad thing [UH] what I'm calling this out is that if this is case this happening our company, like how you to fix it? Like eventually if you don't learn from work you do, I think eventually you would lose the advantage of what you have currently your, in your space or your company. so on his slide for the people listening on audio this is Karri who watched in part one talking about product leadership when software can build itself it's kind talking the opposite of the feature factory guy. And on this slide on the left has automate which is auto fixing automate the known, of bugs and errors things like that. Like triage of incoming work, answering product questions, basically repeatable things you'll do. And then the right, he says invest people in the unknown. And the list there is customer problems, exploration, judgment, quality, new product direction. And reason that I wanted to play this clip from Karri immediately after the Dan Shipper R &D clip is because exploration in here part of this team's job is exploration I guess could see it from that perspective and like oh just give one person silo. I guess could do that obviously because Dan is lobbying do that. Right? You're team is two people, the pirate and the slop cannon pirate and the architect. Yeah, but know. It seems imply that like the work right invest people the unknown. The work the right is I am sort reading of like your team does all those things at same time. That's how read I think makes sense because if you're simply going to in, let's separate out the two person phenomenon that we saw earlier. Yeah. From what said, from this guy saying. Right. right Karri. Sorry. Yeah, Karri. He's not suggesting that. He's saying team does these things, invest in the, know, invest people in the end of not one person. Yeah. So I also read it that way that it's the team. I'm just trying think like there is is bad faith read of this. It's like, well, he's just reinforcing what Dan Shipper said by saying, know, Dan Shipper splitting the exploration side off and the quality side off. they're, they're different sides with a handoff between the two them. You know, a real, real like MBA finance thinking right there, because the evolution that thinking is now start looking at the, the exploration guy who's Dan, who's in -house. I start looking quality side that I'm like, I get this cheaper if I go, know, to the start. Start offshore No, you could construe that model from what know, what just described. I'm kind looking at it holistic thing though [UM] maybe should. But that's how I saw it. No, I mean it should be. But the corrosive, know, finance only mindset. Yeah, absolutely. Like the slippery slope of that finance only mindset is first. I'm going take the quality side and offshore that But then eventually the exploration side is get that too. it's going to be downhill, Yeah, very slippery down downhill slope here. Oh, we're slipping downhill the podcast. right. Speaking of slipping downhill Refuse confuse done with good. The filter is gone. It used be quality filter was essentially built into every stage the product development process. Even before project started, now can build 20 ideas week. This is awesome in many ways. And we can finally skip theoretical meetings talking about hypothetical products and react to the real thing in our hands. But the filtering that used be throughout the process now needs to happen post build when is a lot harder to say no. This is where role an editor comes in and is ultra important in this day age who is doing this in your organization who's looking the end and understanding whether not we're actually building whole. It's new behavior. We have to unlearn that built means done and that done means good we've chat before where we've talked about right now, have to build and throw away a lot of stuff. So, so this build it and throw it away section, I think we covered we watched the Dan Schipper part and we watchedwatched the we watched Karri here. Yes. The we talked about the Wardley paper. Right. Because if you just look at the Wardley diagram if just look the if you type in Wardley pioneer settlers, you'll get diagram. you look the diagram of how they move to each one and what happens each phase. Like I would just Google that and go look at that image rather than even watching this talk. know, and people were pinging the comments saying oh, Dan Shipper like just invented or know, he invented R&D [UH] and they're not wrong. Reinvented R &D. No, didn't really invent anything. understand. But they're not wrong. But know, it's interesting to watch these talks to see what the, what the learning is [UH] yeah. do learned today? Exploring not a department. I think [UH] number one thing I to say for an architect don't hang around with buyers separating the people doing the work from the R &D and then siloing the R&D off to one person or one team or one whatever. Yeah, kind way he's saying is your job is to architect my job be the, know gunslinger over here. Right? [UH] don't, don't buy that for second. I worked place that was like this because of because of the way government R &D money works. They like, oh no, move all the R&D people over here. They're the only people get a dime of that you know, government contract that kind thing. And even there, was this is a terrible system, a terrible system. Yeah, it doesn't sound like good place work take away from this section when you get back to work on Thursday. That's right because the podcast comes out Wednesday sketch a two person one month experiment inside your existing team and or product instead of asking for separate stream revenue and or lab or team of people. Let's try that. Yeah [UH] think that's a, that's good takeaway from that section If you watch the individual clips one after the other, you're going arrive some conclusion. Let us know what think about And by way, since you're there[UM] like and subscribe. Definitely. Definitely And [UH] since we're throwing away everything and we're liking subscribing first before we throw out laptops. The next question that I talk about is whether need roadmap at all. Just so the roadmap got declared dead. And then we walked back and declared it undead. I don't know recussitated That's right. Inside of 24 a minute talk. then Marty Cagan said that wasn't going anywhere. So it's allowed die. That's it. That's it. Yeah. So it's fine. But strategy, which is the word that is actually real word that they're using the word road map to like imitate strategy doesn't live in the roadmap. Absolutely. Say that again. One time. People sitting in back the room. Strategy doesn't live in the road map. How dare you, Brian? How dare dare you, sir Good day. Number one. Oh boy. know, absolutely. Listen, strategy never lived in the roadmap. Right The real shift is from what to build to what prove. Buildings cheap proving maybe not much. This kind of segues into another podcast want to do, which is the cost building, like building, building things It was never bottleneck. You can get small team that's fine tuned, talks to customer every day and build fast and customer can review things like that. That was never bottleneck. But because so many software development teams not optimized that point, meaning the organization around them was know causing them be slow. We never had that conversation. You know now are everyone's going point to AI. Yeah,[UH] you're right. Absolutely. Just stop bigger, you know, turbo powered engine on thing is going somewhere. The speed not really the essence here. It's intent where you going with it? I'm play another section from one the panels they had because and I think have [UH] some Claire Vo talk in here too because one things noted when we watched her talk or maybe didn't note last podcast. Maybe was saving for this one. she says in her talk and I probably have clip here. she wants move upstream to say, what prove what our convictions? That was her topic. What are our convictions? And she says that the remaining constraint is the truth. normally I give flak because she's very project model minded. That's like watching lot of Claire Vo stuff. But this is starting to come around even says don't any ideas anymore. I can't think any new great new ideas like revolutionize whatever because I built all the ideas. Hmm. know, which is like directly in opposition to Katie Dills talk where she says like, well, now build all the ideas. Great. But now just built dozens dozens terrible features. And that and then like done is now at arms with good. Interesting [UH] dichotomy there. Now we can build 20 ideas week. This is awesome in many ways. But the filtering that used be throughout the process now needs happen post build when is a lot harder to say no. the reason played this clip first is like, well, you build everything once. Great. But now, now filtering happen the end. And good luck that by some specialist called editor. Also, way, like you're going to, you're bring in checks when everything else is done and hold up the line. You know, I'm mad. That's going make people. Sure. Yeah, mean that's such wasteful way of doing things. Wasteful. was always wasteful practice. Yeah, talk about Deming. Sorry we've had this chat before where we've talked about right now, to build and throw away a lot of stuff, whether it's code or product. And I'm curious how you think about deciding what to deprecate and what to keep around and keep alive we just switched over to Claire Vo at a panel with a couple folks from Open .I. Tara Sheshan and or Sheshan and then and Nan Yu And she asked them, know, oh, we're point where we're building all this. This it's atrocious question of like, you know[UH] now that we're all building all things world, every single bad feature. And then we, we just have like pick what need throw away Are we all doing that now? Oh my goodness. It's again like when you're I just gave compliment of like she's starting break out of the project model. But also, like you can see, like this is like this project model thinking question. Yeah, well, she's starting break up, but she's so interested that it's hard. It's like her trying extricate herself from quicksand. And I'm curious how you think about deciding what to deprecate and what to keep around and keep alive know, talk was good example this where I think there's an obvious sort next step which is like no toggle. Right? Like there's there's story that evolves from step to step B. And can take users on journey with you, then there are lot more accepting of like the change the churn and the product evolution especially if they appreciate that, know, they can, they can have understanding and some transparency over like what's, know, what's actually going on behind scenes. So think long have coherent story that users can follow along with and you know with the amount attention they're paying know there's a there's actually lot that you can do. that, that theoretically sounded good. But I made that clip because I wanted talk about something just said like as long have good story, like users will go along with you. feel there's a I can easily wrap that one and say the same thing but make it most cynical thing I've said all night. And would be same premise of like why do need user feedback? That there seems be big gulf right there. It's just story isn't going bring users along with you. It's only when they actually receive value. Right? Right Yeah, mean, I know. know why he's kind of saying that because he's from Los Gatoli, right No, no. Oh, he's not. Non is from. was say. Oh, OK. I think that's OpenAI Panel. Yeah, right. OK. In that case, yeah, makes sense. But yeah, So just having story he's saying is good, know, brings people along with you. I don't think that's true. I listened to a podcast today that said the word storytelling in job descriptions has become like the new thing that everybody wants. Like it just like slowly slipped there. It's like it's all like a 400 percent increase in like upper level, know. So there's something watch out for there that these guys the vanguard of like as long have good story, doesn't matter if you're, know, software exploitative or whatever. is that where we're going? in job searching, they're saying, know don't just state what you've done. Tell us what impact you've made. And that's the kind the story angle. Yeah, yeah. know that mean I've always thought that should be case anyway because your resume doesn't really show that. Yeah So anyway, yeah, show don't tell. Someone is saying, guess. right, let's listen her because think this of breaks [UH] And do still think need a road map but I think that roadmap needs be more about ambition. I think needs be bigger. I don't want to see onesie tuesies on your roadmap. I want see the future you believe should exist. I want see what evidence shows that we're making progress. What would prove us wrong? boy on. know that sounds a lot like. It sounds lot like And since said it now, I'm go look up. like But this. That's, that's the problem. But Oh, you mean that podcast We did over 100 episodes ago? Yeah, yeah, yeah, The mission vision strategy. Yeah, yeah, It was a There is. is. There is Arguing Agile 103 challenges to building or three. Holy swoke challenges to building product roadmap. That was was the first episode. And then you going to for creating a mission vision and strategy. And even if I look the thumbnail know I can. All right. This is not great. not great thumbnail. But even if look the thumbnail, it's the thumbnails on arguing agile one or three a pyramid with mission as the base level. You know, the one everything relies on. Yeah, foundation then vision and then strategy goals. And then the road map is a tiny little piece top that's extrapolated from you know and assuming have all that stuff first. Right? yeah, like that's layer she's talking about now. She's saying, what will the world look like the future? Should accomplishable, which is exactly what vision is. Yeah. So without vision, what's what's roadmap? good that? Well, she's, well, how will we know our things are working is exactly what strategy is. Exactly. Yes. You can't make strategy without any kind like KPIs or whatever call them. Some of balance. Yes. Yeah. What will look for is evidence know strategy is working. Right. You know, oh, attract more customers by, know, having a new full sale whatever. Well, how do know more? Well, maybe customer sales year over year better during the sale time than this exact time last year whatever. Yeah, it's that whole hypothesis driven thinking that you know tells you whether it's working not. I'm telling you, we're almost point where we've done many episodes I can't remember what talked about. But I remember that one. But I'm either I'm to pull down between podcasts and listen to again. Or we're have a watch party of and 103 104 like back back because not that long either just to revisit to see still feel same way as I did. You 150 know, plus episodes ago. That's good idea. I really interested it. Yeah, because I'm I'm looking stuff now like not purely from product manager's perspective. I'm looking at it from the small business perspective. So yeah, I might pull down one It'd 31. be good to see our[UH] lenses changed any. Yes, yes. Which they, which they, they do lot, you know, of course. right let's, let's me pause us and then really think we're velocity game. I don't think that's game should be playing for next year [UH] I think next year is the ambition game. I think should think like what huge swings can make. What experiments can I run in two weeks, three weeks. That taken us a year last time And how do I build sort of this road map of very, very, very large investments in very, very ambitious build because I think that is more important than raw feature velocity. And I don't think the road map as it is serves that goal. sorry, I pause right there Marty Cagan was about over top rope. And like got cut commercial like tune in you know, our next episode to find what happens realization is like it's like somebody[UH] the great that's only ever been project manager coming realize like, oh, this is just doing it stage. None this work mattered to anyone. know, this, project that was up at night and know, race and get, know being all stressed about wasn't hit deadline. And then nobody's using the software. You know, great. got it out. It's out there by deadline. Nobody's using it It's that kind of feeling. It is refreshing to see that that pivot though. Yeah. You know, because it's not often you see that, especially on stage as it's nice see that. But it's, I mean, it's nice. It's also nice she called out like, oh, this speed thing is know, it's great and we all need to do it because you know, speed good whatever. hopefully next year it'll be about what, what big ambitious swings you're taking. And I read, I read that as the, the strategy being your big ambitious you know, swing that you're taking. But the goals because could say the big swing is goals or know, mean, depending your strategy yeah. So it's about scale. She's talking about. But obviously these guys not breaking down frameworks or giving you anything [UH] very like tactical to give things do And I wrote down in there's time go through all this because we're just trying all talks. But did write down in in extended notes of who was more tactical and who just gave you like pie in the sky kind stuff. There's nothing you could go implement right away. Yeah. what Marty Cagan. let's let's listen Another one that just [UM] tough corporate governance. I, I'm not talking about PMO, which is process governments governance. I'm talking about corporate governance here. Oversight the company. I, I, we've all known that's problem. But [UM] I said this isn't something product can do anything about. And one most painful lessons over the years is helping Sorry case thought was expand that. That was it. That it. The product managers can't do anything about this. Like somebody hijacks company or some some founder sells or whatever. you know nothing do. We sold our company bending spoons. Nothing do about it. It's probably right. mean, what can you do? Right? You're way down. I mean, watch full talk, which is the best talk he and Katie do, in my opinion, kind of tied best talk. I really can't pick better one. But even you watch what he talks about, he says that usually the people that are having undue influence the roadmap because this stuff, because of corporate corporate governance was kind like mishandled. Yeah. people that are directing the company are then have damage that people are that are directing company then have damaging effect on the products and the roadmaps because like they don't really care about the, know, they care more about whatever they're trying do. Their interests. course. course. That's was pointing out [UM] So final thoughts in this section the Claire Vo one moving upstream. That's the one to highlight because I, normally am pretty critical of Claire Vo and highlight that that's a very good this takeaway her findings you know. Yeah, definitely. There's [UH] there's hope there but also prioritization was never a strategy. Like I understand why she says that, but that wasn't strategy. know, think we're so [UH] if there's a takeaway in this section when get back work on Monday, that's right. Maybe take long weekend off. right next to each roadmap item at the epic level or I guess story level. But think that'd be too, too, granular. Yeah, think too much labor. I think keeping them up sink. Right? Yeah. Keep synched up I think the epic level when back work right. What would have be true for you to stop building on that thing? Yeah. And then be ruthless. Right. If those conditions evaluate, just of You mean like pirate? Yeah. Yeah. Like pirate Go invade the other ship islands. Like I don't know. I'm still trying think of [UH] not with much there. Yeah. Pirates and pinatas. So because that's what the Yannick is opinion. You just get my office. Oh man so know comments[UH] is your roadmap a list features or is a list problems you're trying solve. So that's all together batteries sold separately. the thing that jumped out with lot these talks, Martin Cagan's aside, lot talks is you had not lot of mentions of customers users. Right. But like delete users, that doesn't count Yeah, not lot talk about customers. So It doesn't shock me. But [UH] talk about who is actually listening customers[UH] which raises a question. It's not good question. It's bad question of which customers. Oh, which customers or the thing. could be, could be what's the ROI of talking customers? Oh, because that Dan guy would say oh, don't need Yannick to talk customers I'll talk customers and there'll handoff and I'll tell what customer said. like that's flippant flippant way to look at what know he was presenting. But listen, that's thinking. That's, that's the evolution of that. mean, he said team was team one. So yeah. How much time have for team one, know I'm not getting and fuzzy from that one. right. Who's actually listening? Let's listen to Marty Cagan. So I churned almost nobody follows up anyway. Nothing, not a survey, not an email, nothing to ask me why I churn. Probably the single most important question is why are people using our product or not using our product? And the part that really gets me is that's the key unlocking so much innovation. And yet most teams never ask that question. I mean [UH] just seems at face of it so fundamental, doesn't it? You ask your customers for whose benefit you're creating these things and they are paying you for them. Presumably there's whole supercut of just, Marty Cagan on stage, just making it rain, throwing cash in the crowd, like giving value in the form of you know, wisdom right there all day long. You might be throwing sacks 20s off stage. You get car. do get car. No, because like especially for the R&D guys like know I don't talk customers until I've gone through this whole track of like the internal team that chose to do it. And then we, you know, found a sole champion inside then we built the internal consensus whatever. Like so much bureaucracy happened before you got to customers. Yeah. And now with AI, you know, fueling all this it's even worse because they're saying well don't talk customers because know we talk five customers. had 10 different answers. build five things and then let them pick one because it's so fast build. Right? That's the, All right let's listen to one more take and then think we're done section. The OpenAI] product and engineering team is highly DM -able, highly accessible, highly visible. I mean, they're getting like feedback UUIDs from me on regular. Like don't like what Astra said. They had an attitude like. And so I'm curious, know, certainly I have tried do this my own life. But do you feel like direct user relationships right now are becoming table stakes for product leaders like this idea the DM -able PM. I think is one that see lot out of OpenAI and I'm curious like staying close ground feel like that's becoming more more important. Yeah, I'm pausing here because I don't have the development PM's DM. know, don't have all their handles. I don't Messages guess I guess should start trying because she's, she's implying that hey, I don't like what the new model said. I'm to send the PM who does that model like my direct feedback. So have feedback for me like when I first listened this, I'm oh, there's some like privilege being exercised. absolutely. That's some privilege putting mildly. Yeah, absolutely. Oh my goodness. Oh man, So whoever the PM is for Microsoft Teams, please in comments add your direct message. know [UH] all socials. Yeah, we have plenty to tell you about that. Oh man. Oh man. Getting hold, just being able to just chat back forth and. No, no. Is that real thing? no, mean those guys do what they do best. Don't disturb them. Yeah, just right signals to begin with. think, think users understanding like privacy, their data, how that's used like way more important than always has been users understanding norms of your product privacy and data open. I think they're very so I didn't start out and this might get cut editing. But this clip is here because I had such time with the OpenAI people you know, privacy is very important oh man, just share that. In some ways, it's sound really boring answer. But like all the usual stuff still applies except importance of testing things empirically and moving faster has only increased. So like, yeah, do all other stuff used do, which is like getting details high level and low level same time, like really understand design, really understand product, but also faster [UH] and test with users. It's just become way, way more important. but again, see like her PM like straight background. Yeah, it's like it's everything's just getting faster it's more important test everything. Is that really what's happening? I don't think so. Yeah, but everything may be getting faster but not everything's getting tested. She's saying yeah, but she's saying everything's compressing to like just that stuff. And[UH] mean yeah, this is where was. mean, it's summer development has always inherently been this way where like everything backs up testing because we really didn't have good discipline the first place or to build in quality design is terrible. Yeah, right. Yeah, we've grown too fast. Yeah, yeah, yeah. But none these people talking there was one speaker who got cut out talking about org design because wasn't a strong talk on org design But yeah, we won't even mention who that person is. in the first edition Inspire, I didn't even talk about it as risk, value, usability, feasibility. There were three risks that we taltalked about viability was buried there. I'm embarrassed to say that. Now I fixed it the second edition, but that was 10 years later. This is one those. had lot of introspection because truth is I kept asking how could I have gone so long with such a huge blind spot around product level yeah. So learn section? Almost [UH] you know, listen to customers, listen that listen to customers, but also like the listen to customers that are not talking you, which requires like some effort on your part. Yeah, exactly. It really wasn't all that much revelation. mean[UH] that should been a given. Right. But least that was brought up. So that's good thing. you get back work on let's see. So when Thursday again, this podcast comes out on Wednesday message. I assume people just stop their whole workday when the podcast comes That's right. Who doesn't say message five customers who canceled or never activated and [UH] asked them what held them back. Right. Or stop them whatever is. know, in the case cancellation, what didn't stop anyway? What I'm saying is hide your cancel now button and make people call you. That really and also [UH] let know comments When was last time that anyone your company, asked a churned customer why they left? I mean, this stuff should be fairly straightforward [UH] to obtain. Right. When somebody is uninstalling or you know, you know, deleting their profile or whatever. agree. triggers it. Right? Yeah, but intent needs be there. But you know, it's not self -apparent is how do we all move forward in the air. And that's Marty Cagan going tell us about. He's to, he's strip away the AI and give folks the the best advice they're going get is only he can. That's right. So he's talking about principles. It was same thing that Katie Dole was talking about. And think that's probably why like their talks more than anything. know, they're talking about principles. Yeah, they're like they're at the house builder convention they're only talking about foundations. The stuff that matters not. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Everyone else is like showing off shiny objects. right, let's listen to Marty Cagan. value usability feasibility. There were three risks we talked about. Viability was buried there. I'm embarrassed to say that. Now fixed it the second edition, but that was 10 years later. This is one those. had lot of introspection because the truth is I kept asking how could I have gone so long with such a huge blind spot around products. And I believe I know the answer that. And I share with you because it's very relevant even today, maybe even especially today because in my career, for those that might know, I almost all of my career, was working on developer tools and platforms, which I still absolutely love that space. Who Oh, doesn't wait, love wait. blog didn't know code? that. Hang on. No. mean, I love Oh [UH] you didn't know that he was working on mostly. He worked on I did pull again. We're not deep diving into anyone. like I stay away from diving into anybody else or any other speakers like specific career that brought them that point. So I'm not going now but yeah, very interesting. Again, I know because background. He did work at other places that were not just pure back of the house. So you know so was his full career but definitely what led inspired. I would guess I'm surprised took him 10 years to make that pivot. Yeah. But anyway, it is what is. People still being inspired[UH] nine years later. I honestly had no idea and I just didn't appreciate how powerful and deeply rooted the desire for predictability was And that's from both product people and senior executives and how at odds that desire for predictability is with not just humility but innovation and outcomes. here's what's the mistake. I did not appreciate the lengths that people would go to in order to avoid thinking What does it show up as? It shows up as a craving for process frameworks and predictability. I structured inspired as people process and product. Big mistake. And I am worried that large language models will be used as an alternative to thinking. But the truth is that's already happened with process. The truth is [UH] I must was right about this. In many companies, process is used as a substitute for thinking. So please don't fall out. should have called that out, called out thinking, called out the necessary foundation of product sense much more loudly and clearly. so [UH] that's interesting. You didn't know about the Marty Cagan background thing. did not. think Mike Miller told that. Oh, OK. I'm pretty sure Mike Miller told that. Yeah do I have take away this category? Well, one the themes is highlighting here is people just copying practices and process. Right. And avoiding, you know, the critical thinking part. Right. I like the presentation in that sense. But is there anything actionable from that? No. Right. OK, I agree he's saying. then what? Like now what? Oh wait, have wait for his next book. Oh, this not happening I mean listen, like you've got the arguing agile 103 and 104. Like you've got it. when you actually sit down and do your quarterly planning and ask what, are what's our strategy And executive faces look back at you like just kick their dog, know, because at that point becomes a you have be very careful that point for it not become an accusation of we have no strategies because most businesses they don't have. That's exactly right. I'm going prone say something like, well, had a strategy, we might actually be actioning on that. had strategy. need you. That's right[UH] Yeah. Get Brian. Marty Cagan citing sources saying things would, he would stop doing or stop themselves from doing [UH] kind the point of that category question It's did change everything about product or Silicon Valley just spend rediscovering some principles, maybe some agile principles. I'm putting tips on that. So let's let's close takeaway. I'll go first. I volunteered go first. right. 11 talks later practices getting copied with new names and [UH] critical thinking is missing. And Marty Cagan said all better start thinking critically or I'm be, you know, write another book**** it! Or you or or you'll be off Christmas list. Oh yes, indeed. Good. Oh my goodness. So this, this is a, was a, was way getting here. So folks, that's it. One liner, right? Center your business around principles. That's right. That's it. That's the takeaway. night. Do please like and subscribe. Let's say your thoughts the comments below subscribe. So started with